Germany scraps new Iron Cross

it is absurb. It's like calling a Trabant a BMW. I think it should be carried with pride. It's like saying all Germans were Nazis. It's a shame that there are no more WWI vets to carry theirs and tell people that it was a well deserved award in both wars and even before that. After 1945 some German pows in England were allowed to carry their iron cross.

 

I agree with the sentiment of some of the posters here in this thread. The Iron Cross is not a "Nazi" award. It has been awarded to Germans by their Country, and by whomever was leading the Country at that particular time. There's no reason why a contemporary German soldier should not be awarded Germany's highest military honor for valor on the battlefield. It doesn't matter if it happened in 1918 in France, 1944 in Belgium or even on 2008 in Iraq. You still have to prove yourself in combat against an enemy, something that a lot of us cannot say we've done.

 

Well, lets hope that the German Govt will not bend to pressure and and make a politically correct judgemant.

Like you guys say, I too think its rather silly for the Iron Cross to be the only thing to be concidered as a ""link"" to the nazi past. This is one of very few times, that I will not side with those Jewish Organizations on.

PS, I would agree with those Jewish organizations in that if it would ever be considered also bringing back the: DKiG (German Cross in Gold) and the DKiS (German Cross in Silver) that those two ugly awards should just be kept as something from the past.

 

I still don't get why they don't like the idea beacuse looking here it says.
Association of Knight's Cross Recipients (AKCR)

711 recipiants of the Knight's Cross served in the Bundeswehr, 117 as Generals or Admirals.

 

Well said, sir. I completely agree with your sentiment.

 

If they changed the Iron Cross medal to something else we might as well change the English VC while we are at it, I say

 

tomcat,
You Ozzies have your own now.
Australian Victoria Cross Winners
Victoria Cross For Australia.

Victoria Cross for Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So it's not the "English VC" for your Armed Forces.

The Canadians have their own too with Pro Valore in Latin instead of For Valour, as Canada is bi-lingual.
Victoria Cross (Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

 

You are very right, I meant we as in an overall change not just as a singular nation changing it, I already have a listing of all victoria cross winners throughout all Australian conflicts, thankyou anyway

 

This looks to me a lot like trying to discuss communism. You have two things going on, the public opinion held by many many people and generally incorrect and the truth, known to far fewer and generally not believed. Sadly that's how it works.

Whether the Iron Cross SHOULD be associated with the Nazis etc is immaterial, the fact remains that in the minds of the majority it is and therefore can't really be used. The only way to change that would be a massive re-education program within Germany itself which would go down like a giant silver balloon!

What I can't understand is why people oppose the principle of rewarding soldiers with medals that aren't associated with Hitler et al (I'd vote for the WW1 era 'military merit cross,' very nice.)

It does go to show though how successful the Germans were at taking iconic German symbols and tying them in with Nazism for all time.

 

I personaly think that it is dumb because there was an Iron Cross before the Nazis and it should still be around

 

Hi, as a german I understand why no one wants the "real" iron cross back. We all grew up with never ending stories about how bad and evil the military really is and no one except us germans of course seem to have noticed that. Giving them a medal dedicated to combat would be just to much for this pacifistic lobbies. So according to them a speech WILL preserve your butt if you look at a loaded shotgun.

For a long time we had no medal for bravery. According to our lefts and greens this would be the first step for a revival of imperialitic and aggressiv ideas.

But even if they had used the iron cross it would have been useless. Because the iron cross could only be awarded during times of war and according to our secretary of defense (or better the guy who claims that job) we are not at war!

If our soldiers die. They have accidents, are targets of unfriendly attention or just the victims of terrorrists. So they actually can't die in combat. Nonetheless they do. Our troops in northern Afghanistan report reguarly enemy contact.

But most of our politicians still think our soldiers are nothing but armed construction workers and everyone who tells something else is considered dangerously insane, imperialistic or just a nazi.

the "new iron cross"
http://www.federaljack.com/2009/07/07/germany-awards-new-iron-cross/

 

My thoughts exactly...

 

Well the symbol of our armed forces is called a "stylized paw cross". Whatever that means. So similarity with that iron cross is pure coincidence and not intended by the author.

As I said they work hard to keep the pacifist happy...

 

It's still madness Onething, I don't think anyone with a fully functioning brain equates the modern Germany with '33-'45 other than in an historical sense.

And for it to be folks like Col Ernst-Reinhard Beck complaining just doesn't make any sense to me, has there really been such a public outcry?

I can understand associations with that brief past being unwanted, but surely there's bucketloads of associations which could be made with the result of Germany just grinding to a halt.

Volkswagen is an example, probably now one of Europe's most successful car companies, but you'd not close it down especially as it's evolved so totally from it's origins.

Maybe it's because I'm an Englander I don't get it, but feel feel to tell your compatriots it's time to get over it, most of us have.

 

The "new" Iron Cross looks like an updated version of the Franz-Friedrich Cross 2nd class. They sure put a lot of thought into that ones design

I wonder if the trio of grades of Wound Badges are also abolished? Perhaps yet-if a soldier gets wounded-what do they get? a Bundeswehr Cross???? or even better yet-a handshake and a thank you???

 

Hello Carl,

you must be ex Bundeswehr - thats is exactly what they get - plus a pension (e.g. having lost a leg). A 22 years old invalid receives about 300 euro state pension/month (Minderung der Erwerbsfähigkeit) means due to reduction of his future career capabilities.

Regards
Kruska

 

Doesn't the new one still look a lot like the old one with gold plating.

 

Hi K/ truthfully, I got lucky on my choice ;-)) Also, I KNEW I could count on you and your knowledge of such ;-)) 300 Euro pension doesn't sound lik much-even compared to US Dollars.

 

Just the basic design over-all. I just can't fathom why they could not make an exception in the case of the EK-because they could easily have kept the 1957 version-or just as easily have hone back to the 1813 and 1870 versions.

 

Well the Name is a bit awkward but at least we now HAVE a medal for bravery. And giving out medals to wounded soldiers would be accepting that they have been wounded in combat wouldn’t it?

But the “Bundeswehr” has come a long way in the last 10 years. Someone said the “German army is like a turtle. Whatever she does she does it slowly, carefully and heavily armoured. But at least this turtle now learns to snap back.”

In 2007 the NATO started two operations in northern Afghanistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Harekate_Yolo

These were the first offensive operations under command of a German general since 1945. Our parliament was absolutely furious about it. Mostly because the Nato said it was a routine operation and our parliament couldn’t do anything about the German part then. Even if the German soldiers didn’t _officially_ take part in the real heavy fights.

Maybe this was the real reason why they now invented the new cross. And in early 2009 the rules of engagement had also been changed for our soldiers. Now they are allowed to open fire at an enemy even before the enemy can open fire.

Our politicians didn’t know that before our media told them and as you can imagine many of them thought we would attack Poland and France the next day. In Germany there is a great mistrust from many people.

Many soldiers don’t like to were there military outfit in public. In fact since 1998 they are not allowed to wear their (I think) dress uniforms in public. Officially the government says it could offend foreigners, immigrants or tourists. People switch sidewalks and often you can hear such people say “soldiers are murders.”

But I think this is only normal. From the fourth to the at least 10th grade second world war and the Nazi crimes are repeated over and over in the schools and that’s of course right. But the methods are not always the best. For example when I was 12 we watched a movie from the concentration camp Bergen Belsen during a history lesson. The video was made by the US Army during the liberation. Halve of the class nearly throw up and most of us had nightmares for months. Then there are the videos form burning German and British cities during the bombing nights. You most certainly can’t forget these pictures.

And of course it gives you a different view on military and war it’s not so easy getting over it.