The EU isn't as bad as we think

Who said anything about light and tunnels? People have always been thick, tragedy of life I guess

Never been called an optimist before

 

Always a first time Stefan.

 

I always felt that a pessimist is what an optimist calls a realist.

 

Pertinent to nothing, I bought some Euros this week.
They need a redesign... hardly look like money at all

 

The do look like something out of a monopoly set but European money always has.

 

You hand over £200 and get a bundle of toytown credits in return... very odd feeling.

 

I got that PC game free the other week in The Times.

I wonder if Hasbro will do a Euro monopoly?

 

I really don't indulge in such nostalgia mate.

Well Canada, Australia and New Zealand might rate as first world.
My commonwealth suggestion has nothing to do with clinging onto any outdated idea, nor a desire to return to some long lost, and good riddance to it, status quo.

If anything is outdated I think the idea of a bloc based on adjacent geography is too 19th century to take seriously. I much prefer the idea of a bloc which has a "branch" in every continent, with a wide range of resources, and unlikely to be scuppered by localised events. It not only allows some redress for past errors but also suits the globalised world we're all part of. To me giving the EU superiority over the Commonwealth is like choosing the folk who live in your street over your family.

Well always easy to follow where others have led, the fact remains that the UK and the US lead much needed action, pushed for an international response while the EU held meetings and the Russians fed in volunteers and weapons.
cheers,

 

I can't fathom little Inglander's out. We either except we have to unite as one Economic force or our grand children will be speaking Chinese and working for Mc Noodle.

 

Yup, that's why I said 'a few more' suggesting that the commonwealth would be better if it wasn't made up primarily of third world nations that are hardly in a fit state to help us at all. Hell, the very nature of the commonwealth is to try to maintain some sort of position everyone thinks we hold in the world, maintain what people think is the 'status quo.'

More like choosing your neighbours over those kids you used to beat up when you were in primary school

Actually no, the French led one of the multinational divisions that went into Bosnia, the one that took Mostar in fact. Not really holding meetings is that now? The same could be said of Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, the Russian Federation, Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey and the Ukraine all of whom contributed soldiers to IFOR as well as a host of other non-European nations. Not really following where others have led is it?

I guess also when you consider the sizes of many of the armed forces in Europe and the fact that they are often constitutionally required to act only as defence forces, it's amazing they managed to partake at all.

 

What's "Little Englander" about being anti-corruption and pro-democratic?

This insult first, discuss later (if ever) style, is so common of EU supporters as to be genuinely worrying. You're quite happy to tar me as some form of nationalist or bigot, without me expressing any nationalistic or bigoted sentiment, and then top it all off with anti-Chinese sentiment.

 

Easy Tiger, I enjoy Chinese food and have travelled to Asia more times than I care to mention. What strikes me IS our complete incomprehension of how China is about to control the way we do business. Ask yourself this, what influence will China''s economic power have on our culture. The answer is they will absorb ours completely and sell it back to us at a quicker rate that the US did.

Add to that Chinese citizens have an unlimited desire to succeed in everything they do. This can't be said of our own citizens. We linger on past glories and talk as if we still have big chair around the global table. Get with the programme.

Interestingly, you talk of corruption as if it were exclusively European. You only have to look at our own Tory MP's funding (possibly the next government )to see they are pumped full of Non-Doms money via shelf companies .

 

Firstly thanks for keeping this civil, and more importantly interesting.

Fair point-ish. I don't believe the relationship is all about helping us, but that's as true of the EU as the Commonwealth.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Although that might have been true of the original association, after the Harare Declaration I think there's a very different relationship going on based on the promotion of democracy and freedom. Have a butchers :Commonwealth Secretariat - Harare Commonwealth Declaration, 1991

Funny but you could just as easily be talking about European nations.

Well I'll partially concede on this one. However I'd point out that the involvement there, tiny as it was, was developed via the UN and NATO and not the EU. I think their main concern was avoiding upsetting the 4th largest army in Europe at that time.

cheers,

 

I disagree, closer economic ties with Europe would aid us far more than any economic connection with the vast majority of commonwealth nations.

All well and good, however I can't help thinking that recognising the Queen as the head of the Commonwealth and English as a lingua franca belies the post-imperialistic nature of the entire organisation. Of course there are a few nations which are hardly pillars of democracy and freedom which we seem to ignore or at the very least tolerate.

True and on the basis that an entertaining metaphor proves very little probably worth leaving alone.

Not sure you can call the commitment made by EU nations tiny, as I said an entire multinational devision was French led. There were 10,000 French troops participating in IFOR, 4000 German, 1000 Greek, 2000 Dutch, 2000 Italian and so on. So no, the involvement was not so tiny compared to our 13,000 troops. And yes, of course it was organised by NATO, the EU is not a military force, never has been. Not sure why you find this so surprising. As for your last comment, it makes no sense and I think you know that.

 

And ditto for Sean Connery and the SNP. It's not exclusively Tory either.

 

Thanks for setting up things straight about IFOR stefan. This is just another reason why we should unite. This village cliché struggle makes me think of the Bostonians and the Virginians two hundreds years ago. What's left of it now? Nothing: they are all Amercan now and fight under the same banner. In 2100 we will all define ourselves as being European first because that is what we are. For those who don't know Fnance and Germany have already joined military units.

 

No worries Skipper, I just get fed up with people complaining about European nations not contributing etc when it is quite simply rubbish. The US attitude to the French, with it's crop of idiotic slogans and nicknames, jokes and childish gestures (freedom fries indeed!) particularly irritates me as it simultaneously ignores the French contribution in Afghanistan and makes a mockery of a nations right to determine it's own policy.

 

That's okay, I don't want to start another "my country is better thing" with some of the rogues. So many nations send troops to hot theaters and most countries don't even talk about them in the news.

 

Hey! It's funny watching the Great Ones belly-aching among themselves :tennisclap: Pass the popcorn! Go, :flag_portugal:

 

Stefan and I perfectly agree, read the posts again.