US death toll in Iraq war hits 4,000

US death toll in Iraq war hits 4,000 - Yahoo! News

A roadside bomb killed four U.S. soldiers in Baghdad on Sunday, the military said, pushing the overall American death toll in the five-year war to at least 4,000. The grim milestone came on a day when at least 61 people were killed across the country.

 

Sooo many deaths with virtually nothing accomplished.

 

Five years later, Iraq is still a mess - MSNBC TV Experts - MSNBC.com

This article has been catching a lot of flak in another forum. They are comparing this Iraq "police action" with WWII.

 

You sure know how to gte the Goose's gander up with this post. That's utter bull-shit and you know it, to say that so little has been accomplished. If I can find the stats that someone sent to me via one of my email sites, i'll gladly post what HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED by our Soldiers over the last five years.


Sorry Otto and Gents-and it aint my meds this time that's got me steamed.

Best regards--Carl.

 

Seriously Carl, considering the number of US soldiers, Iraqi civilians and other coalition soldiers killed, we haven't really achieved that much. The conflict between different groups is massive, the government we have put in place is one of the most corrupt governments in the world, people are not happy, we loose more men every day and have made the entire region less stable. I hate to say it but I remain unconvinced.

ED: If you want some really grim reading, try this:

Iraq

 

Check out these stats as sent to a friend of mine who forwarded them to me-which were sent by a former US MArine:

47 Countries have reestablished their Embassies in Iraq.
The Iraqi Govt currently employes 1.2 million Iraqi people.
3,100 Schools have been renovated.
364 more schools are under repair.
263 NEW schools are under construction.
38 new schools have been completed.

Iraqi's higher educational structure consists of:
20 Universities.
46 Institutes and or Colleges.
4 Research Centers-currently in operation.

25 Iraqi students deperted for the USA in Jan 05, for the re-established Fullbright Program.

The Iraqi NAVY, is operational. They have:
Five-100 foot Patrol Craft.
Thirty Four smaller vessels.
One Naval Infantry Regiment.

Iraq has their own Counter-Terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion.

Iraq's Airforce has Three Operational Squadrons which includes:
9 Recon and 3 US C-130 Transport Aircraft. (Under Iraqi operational control)
16 UH-1 Helicopters.
4 Bell Jet Rangers.

The Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped Police Officers.

There are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce 3,500 new officers every 8 weeks.

There are over 1,100 new building projects in Iraq, which include:

364 new schools.
67 Public Clinics.
15 Hospitals.
83 Railroad Stations.
22 Oil Facilities.
93 Water Facilities.
69 Electrical Facilities.

96% of all Iraqi Children under the age of 5, now have their first two series of Polio vaccinations.

4.3 million Iraqi Children were enrolled in primary school by mid October.

There are 1,192,000 cell-phone subscribers in Iraq.

The Iraqi Media consists of:

75 Radio Stations.
180 Newspapers.
10 TV Stations.

Baghdad Stock Exchange, opened in June 2004.

2 Candidated for the Iraqi Presidency, had a televised debate recently.

Now tell me that nothing much has happened that is positive in Iraq!!!

 

From the report above:

>Estimates of those displaced after the Al-Askariya Shrine bombing ranged widely from 380,000 to 500,000 persons.
>During 1996, according to the UN Assistance Mission for Iraq (UNAMI), citing Ministry of Health (MoH) and the Baghdad Medical Legal Institute data, 34,452 civilians were violently killed (16,867 in Baghdad)
>On May 7 2006, then minister of interior Bayan Jabr announced to the press the arrest of a major general and 17 other ministry employees implicated in kidnapping and "death squad activities."
>June 5 2006, up to 50 persons were taken from the Salhiya neighborhood in Baghdad
>On June 21 2006, approximately 70 Ministry of Industry and Minerals employees on their way home from work were stopped at a temporary checkpoint. Gunmen boarded their buses, released the women, and drove off taking the male employees hostage. Approximately half of them were released, and the rest were presumed dead.

And how about the 'Iraqi security services' we are so proud of?
>On December 25, British and Iraqi forces raided MoI's Serious Crime Unit, based at the Jameat police station in Basrah. The joint forces released 127 prisoners, including juveniles. Many of the prisoners showed signs of torture. The joint forces razed the building explaining that a torture chamber had been discovered in the building, and they did not want to risk it being re-used.
>On May 30, a joint inspection team discovered that 1,431 detainees were being held in extremely poor conditions in the Baghdad Central Detention facility, a national police detention facility known as "Site 4." Since Site 4's capacity was only approximately 500 beds, inmates had insufficient space to lie down and instead sat knee-to-knee. Some detainees claimed that they were hung by handcuffs from a hook in the ceiling and beaten on the soles of their feet and their buttocks. Inmates claimed that interrogators killed some detainees. A number of juvenile detainees, mostly young teenagers, alleged sexual abuse at the hands of MoI personnel and adult prisoners. There were also allegations that some family members of the inmates were also sexually assaulted. Following the inspection of Site 4, the government worked to improve conditions for the detainees, relocating many including juveniles to safer locations. In June arrest warrants were issued for over 50 suspected abusers.
>According to UNAMI's September-October report, payroll fraud in the security forces was widespread. Police officers frequently required payment from would-be recruits to join the police force. Absenteeism was widespread, and in Kirkuk alone, half of the 5,000 police force and 13,000 army soldiers were reportedly absent at any given time, and many were permanently absent without leave, but still received their pay (see section 1.d.).

The democratic government is pretty good too:
>Hazem Sha'alan was convicted in absentia and sentenced to 60 years' imprisonment. He and 27 other officials were alleged to have played a key role in the theft of $1 billion (1.3 trillion dinars) in 2004.

Just a smattering. What have we achieved? A thin, hardly visible veneer over an utter disaster.

 

Seriously Stefan, take a look at the numbers-facts don't lie-unlike leftist websites. If you want to put it into a sort of perspective, one life lost, was too much.

These numbers are NOT factual and are from my crappy memory and are also approximate.

WWII American losses killed were in excess of 400,000.
Korean War killed (USA) are in excess of 50,000.
Vietnam War losses exceed 58,000 killed in action.

Lets see now, WWII (for the USA) lasted some 41 months.
The Korean War was long enough but, not as long as WWII.
Vietnam lasted (unofficially) 23-25 years. Our first casualty in Vietnam, was a Captain Brown-if im not mistaken. The last American killed in Nam was a Corporal McMahon - one was Army, the other was a Marine. Please forgive me if I have misspelled any of these Gents names.

The Iraq War is now 5 years continuing. We have lost one serviceman in Iraq (and Afghanistan-respectively) compared to WWII losses, that's: a ratio of what 1 in 100,000 - not bad-only speaking of numbers and NOT lives. Like I said, one man killed over there is WAYYYYYY too much.

Korea vs Iraq: That's 1 for appx 12 1/2.

Vietnam that's 1 for approx every 15.

The numbers show that even though Iraq is one of the longest lasting wars the USA has been involved in, that the casualty figures are relatively low-as compared to the casualties from the other wars. And as my math skills really suck-and being im under several meds and my thinking is not 100% clear and is dulled these days, I think that it should say something positive about Pres Bush in that our casualties are VERY low as compared to that from other wars-and with this war now five years old.

By the figures listed above, I, in no way, shape or form, wish to belittle our soldiers at all, nor to rob them of anything that they deserve as well as I , in no way, shape or form, wish to also insult them by using these lists.

Also, those who really know me, know im better than that and also know how I personally feel, about our veterans-and veterans in general. To me, ALL OF THEM ARE HEROES. It matters not to me, if some never saw combat-just the fact that they served, is enough for me to think of one as a hero.

 

ANd Stefan, as per your report from above, all it does is to report N~E~G~A~T~I~V~I~T~Y instead of trying to report anything that is P~O~S~I~T~I~V~E - which is why all the tree-hugging liberals cry that the war is lost and there is no hope. I sure wish you could be here and to have been with me when I spoke with approximately 100 or more Iraq and Afghanistan veterans-whom I have had the priviledge to have spoken with and also done things with while volunteering for various things locally, that I devoted two full years of my life in doing.

I don't think many can say that they did the same as I did.

 

I don't know if you noticed Carl, but that 'leftist' website is the US State Department . All that info is from a US report, published by your own government on it's own website. Sure OUR casualty figures are low, but what of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead? What of the hundreds of people kidnapped and often murdered? What of the hideously corrupt regime that has come to power? The police who attack coalition forces, kidnap civilians and as often as not are on the side of the insurgents?

Christ, just because this isn't WW2 and we aren't taking as many casualties still doesn't mean we have achieved much. What the hell is a million cell phones compared to 34,000 civilian deaths in a single year? 300,000 displaced persons? Children without parents, parents without children. Yeah, we have achieved a lot!

Don't get to thinking I don't support the efforts of our troops, if ordered I'd be out there willingly, but seriously, don't let's get to thinking we have achieved some great victory. We ain't!

 

Interesting point Otto, say what you like about Saddam, he did preside over the most stable country in the area at that time and I hesitate to suggest it but fewer people died in 4 years of his regime than ours.

Right, but just read it, the negatives look a hell of a lot like they outweigh the positives. Worth noting that in 1996 that works out as 1000 refugees created for every new school built, interesting to look at. Great to see stats on the Iraqi police force but tragically they are a joke! I know British soldiers who have worked with them, trained them and then been shot at by them, blown up by them, betrayed by them. Seriously, I'm no tree-hugger but there comes a point when you have to face facts, the situation in Iraq is diabolical and no number of daily newspapers or mobile phones will change that. Nor will all the P~O~S~I~T~I~V~E~I~T~I~T~Y and happy thoughts in the world.

My friend you forget that I work with Iraq and Afghanistan veterans all the time. I intend in the not to distant future to become one but in the mean time I try to listen and learn all I can from them so as to better do my job when I arrive. I won't claim to be an expert but I have heard in person the opinions of many British troops on the situation in Iraq ranging from Troopers to Generals and in all honesty the general consensus seems to be 'not good.'

 

Say what you will, Mr. Evans, but I'm not exactly convinced. Yes, those ARE good statistics and figures and reports, but things are nowhere near as good as they could be. Bush recently called Iraq a, quote - 'Victory'.

By who's standard? Perhaps by his, but I doubt by many others. Iraq is still a mess in many respects. 4000 US troops killed already. And those are the Americans. What about all the other countries who sent soldiers there? The assassinations, bombings, driveby shootings haven't stopped yet and until they do, people are going to continue to be critical of the war.

Let's face it - Nobody knows anything about those stats you just posted here. If you asked the average person on the street, he wouldn't know how many schools, hospitals or universities have been built in Iraq recently, he wouldn't know about how many new policemen there are patrolling the streets.

Why?

Because nobody TELLS people these things. All the population hears is the bombings, the carjackings, rapes, shootouts, killings...

Faced with news like that, how can you honestly expect people to believe that the situation in Iraq is improving?

 

Bombings, shoot outs, rapes, killings, carjackings............

are you talking about Detroit, LA, Obamas Church, Hilarities campaign headquarters, or the Democratic National Convention?

 

This is one of those threads where everybody will get offended. There have been positive things done in Iraq. There have been negative things going on in Iraq. The Iraqi people have been introduced to freedom not known before. They now know what it feels like to have a sense of independence and freedom of choice. This is all that we are able to accomplish at this time. If our goal is to make democracy a success, then we are doomed to fail. Democracy will not flourish in this part of the world with such stringent division of sects. As long as Islam exists, democracy will fail. Now, I am not insulting Islam. I wish christians were as devote as the Muslims are. If the goal is to win against terrorism, Then we will fail because terrorism is not in Iraq. They are fighting us in Iraq is a war to get us out.

If democracy is to flourish, then the Iraqi people are the only ones who can make it flourish. they need to fight for it in order for it to mean anything. We cannot force it to work for them. I say it is time for us to pull out and let them decide what it is they want. Do they want to keep the freedom given to them or do they want the security of having a tyrant protecting them?

We went in on a lie and should have pulled out then. Imagine how the US would respond if Russia or China invade a country on a lie and continue to occupy the country anyway. Would the US really allow that country to continue its occupation? I think not. We were wrong, we know it and we need to pull out. Period. This is not a threat to national security. What kind of damage could Iraq to the US? Come on. Lets get real. Fighting terrorism in response to 9/11 is the fight we need to fight. Lets fight terrorism but lets do it right. This is not fighting terrorism. No more deaths, no more maimed soldiers, no more period.

 

Some good points PzJgr, not sure I agree about democracy being doomed as long as Islam exists (the same could easily have been said of Christianity 400 years ago), it just needs time. That said, maybe we should dispense with this stupid idea that democracy is the best possible form of government for everyone and that we should force it into practice wherever we can.

And no need for anyone to get offended as long as everyone stays level headed and sensible. Let's see if we can all be as grown up as we have managed so far.

 

interesting I could rip you guys to shreds with the info I have the first person contacts but I won't because of security and protecting relatives that are out there saving our butts from being under the gun on our own home turf. It is so unfortunate we have such misguided reporting of what reality really is, so you guys can huff and puff all you want, 9/10ths is pure B.S. Sorry Kai I really do not think you wanted the responses to your original thread that you have gotten, even my own.

~ I know all about Nam and what we did and bled for whether people and govt were behind us, protesting or just plain screwing us and laughing in our regards to our own sacrifices. I find this all shameful even today, what is done IS DONE, so quit Bitching about it, let our men/women get the job done and keep the politicians out unless you are going to put them right up on the front lines butt naked and I for one would vote for that in an instant..........08 is going to be fun and beyond

 

Sorry Erich, but you can't invent tens of thousands of dead Iraqis. I know you say you have your 'sources' but whatever they say, there is no way the situation out there can be described as anything but diabolical. Seriously, I'd love to know what info you have but honestly, I'll trust the people I know who have been there and experienced it.

 

Stefan I've been there and experienced it, I am not in denial of whom has been killed from all sides, there is no doubt in my mind where it will lead, I've said this in the past, we have troops heading to the Syrian border right now and the other "guys" know it full well but not actually where and they are getting edgy ......... nuff said