could hitler win the war?

Please give us some instances of Heinrich Himmler's 'brilliant' tactical successes. I am rather curious about this as the only field command he had was as head of Army Group Vistula, and for only 2 months at that, spending a significant amount of that treating flu.

 

Sorry guys my mistake remember reading a while back about a certain battle of Oder-Neisse and had misread the bit where it said Gen. Gotthard Heinrici replaced Himmler midway through the parapatory stages of the battle, and it was Heinrici who's tactical brilliance made the stand last so long, and not Himmler

 

Mohnke really did not have anything to do with the defense of Berlin. It all was on Weilding's shoulders. Heinrici was on the outskirts of Berlin. Also, taking a city as large as Berlin is not an easy thing to do and worse yet with tanks. The Russians actually did not plan the attack on Berlin and were focusing on reaching the Reichstag, they actually missed several opportunities to end the battle sooner had then not by passed the Chancellery or the HQ for the defenders.

 

Mohnke was defending the inner citadel (Reichstag and Hitler's bunker area) and was not operating under the command of Weilding.

Weilding surrendered the city's garrison (what few soldiers there were left) a day or so before Mohnke (and the few soldiers and officers he had left) did.

I was not questioning the Soviet attack on Berlin, personally I think the Red Army was terribly organised, with 'hap hazard' tactics and the 'throw millions of men in' approach, causing them to win many battles down to sheer numbers, rather than military brilliance.

E.g Stalingrad - The encircled 6th Army ran out of ammo because they shot so many soviets! No point fighting with no ammo left so may as well surrender eh! (P.s I know there were other factors before anyone starts but am just proving a point..

Tanks are vulnerable in street fighting, and you are correct in saying that Berlin was not an easy city to take.

Personally if I was a Russian General at the time I would have laid seige to Berlin and levelled it with artillery and air strikes until the Germans surrendered, which they would have done eventually..

 

Considering your ability in proferring glaring mix-ups, it appears to me that your present and future utterances will have to be taken with a fair amount of salt.

 

Considering your ability in proferring glaring mix-ups, it appears to me that your present and future utterances will have to be taken with a fair amount of salt. </font>[/QUOTE]With the amount of facts/names/dates floating around my mind there's no wonder I made that error, the only one I've made by the way, and I was quick to correct myself and provide the correct info.

Clearly if you knew so much you could've easily corrected me at the time...

 

Interesting..........and here I sat thinking that the Germans gave up Stalingrad due to lack of supplies getting into the city like FOOD.

This must have been the case due to the encirclement accomplished by the very same Russians the Germans were soooo busy shooting.

 

Which is why I said I know there were other factors involved......

No ammo, no fuel, no food = 6th Army surrenders or dies there, shame they were made to march halfway accross the USSR afterwards with all but a few thousand dying in the process.

Remember reading the Diary of the Colonel who was charged with guarding the Dept Store area, saying how by the last few days his men could no longer lift their rifles, due to malnourishment and the cold, and how the Russians sent small squads during the night to steal HMG's etc from his defenses.

 

Shame they were made to march halfway accroos the USSR afterward???

Rhyd,

You cant possibly be serious!!! Shame you say??
Yes its a shame.....Shame that 30 million Soviets died as a result of the Germans invasion. These were not the good guys.. on the contrary millions suffered where ever these soldiers that it seems you admire so much entered. I personally have absolutely no sympathy for them.

For what its worth, the Soviets couldnt transport their own soldiers, they also had to walk on foot at that time. Now thats also a shame.

 

As a historian it's important not to bring personal 'feelings' into such issues, as that clouds things..

If I was being asked my personal opinion on the matter now thats a different thing.

I respect soldiers who were there just doing their job.

You can't sit there and tell me that every single combatant in the German forces were 'evil'??

Most will have been professional soldiers, doing what they were ordered to do wether or not they thought it right or wrong, much like todays armed forces as you will know.

I take it you have spent time reading some German Officers & Soldiers diaries at some point and seen their opinions/perspectives at the hell they were being put through at the time?

I'm equally sure things will have been much the same on the soviet side but I've not spent any great time studying things from their perspective tbh so would rather not comment.

 

Rhyd,

I took nothing personal. However I must say that I was surprised and at the same time amazed at what was stated.

Your showed sympathy for the invading soldiers who's general orders from the Reich on the Eastern front were to pretty much exterminate everyone who resisted and to spread fear, which lead to the massacre hundreds of thousands of Soviets in a city, but not for the ones who were resisting their cruelty and fighting for their very own survival??

I personally find this a little disturbing.

Yes I am quite familiar with German letters, stories and journal entries, unlike you however I am also familiar with Soviet recollections and I assure you that the attrocities and cruelty commited by the glorious Wehrmacht on the Easter Front far exceeds that of their Soviet counterparts who later took revenge.

I dont consider marching 90 thousand German POW's across USSR to Siberia, who 1 year earlier were responsible for invaded a city which left 1 million peple dead inhumane. Frankly I think that is the very least of what Stalin could have done.

Yes, not all German soldiers might have been bad and im sure most were following orders. However their orders left millions massacred, villages wiped off the map and entire cities ravaged pillaged and burned to the ground. Im sure that the victims of the loved ones lost, would not except " they were only following orders " as an excuse.

And im sure most would understand

 

Just a side note: This question suggesting itself has titled the "What if?" section for years now... and Ironcross was really the first one to ask it?!

 

Sloniksp - I appreciate your concerns, however my aim is not to condone any of what happened during WW2. My own family suffered losses during WW2 thanks to the Reich, so I'm hardly the German's most passionate follower..

I am simply commenting from a purely militarian prospective.

I really respect Rommel, the fact that he had such great military skills and MOST importantly his renound chivalry towards his adversaries makes him in my eyes a truly Professional Soldier.

He often disagreed with Hitler's plans and I respect him for that also.

Do you forget all the innocent German civilians the Soviets killed in the Battle of Berlin etc then? Or did they all deserve it in your opinion?

Civilian deaths are a cost of war my friend, always have been and always will be unfortunatley.

 

Rhyd,

Understood and im glad you further explained yourself I was beginning to worry


No, I dont believe that the civilians in Berlin deserved to die, however like you said this is the cruel price of war.

 

Rhyd, you miss the fact that whilst civilian deaths are just another feature of modern war, systematic murder and extermination are not.

 

Agreed Stefan, and not once have I said I condone any of the crimes Hitler committed, odd how the systematic murder was also used on his own Soldiers/Generals/Politians if his orders werent carried out..

Put youselves in their shoes, what would you do? Follow orders or be shot?

Forget our view on it, to 99% of Germans during WW2 I'm sure they truly saw Nazism being the permanent future for a long time

 

True, as I've said literally hundreds of times, it's all very easy to sit in my room at home nice and comfy, criticising these people but would I do any different? I hope so but I just don't know.

That still doesn't make it any less of a crime though.

 

Agreed

 

Interesting read here about the glorious Soviet forces...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,707835,00.html#article_continue

 

Rather old news that link was, not exactly a revelation the Germans did the same thing. What do you expect it was a bloody brutal front?