What exactly determined what firearm you were issued back then?

I mean, I see all these clips and videos and pictures and movies with guys, one will have a Thompson, another will have a Browning Automatic Rifle, a couple guys with M1 Garands, maybe a combat shotgun or something thrown in the mix...

What determined what weapon you were issued? Rank? Did personal preferance make any difference? Were you judjged with each and given the one they thought you were the most effective with? How did it work?

I mean, usually I see the Captains and important people with guns like the Thompson, and less ranked grunts with things like the M1. Does it have to due with rank?

Could you say something like "I think I should have a Thompson, sir" or something in basic training, or what? I never really understood this process, and could not find any information on the internet about it!

I'm sort of stupid about these things, I know. I have hair down past my shoulders and am a hippie who loves The Beatles and the 60's, what can I say?

Of course, I've always had a fascination with WW2, I like to learn all I can!

Thank you in advance,
-Peter

 

I would say it goes together with rank and personal skills. For example, an excellent marksman would get issued a sniper rifle, while a strong person who can steadily operate a machinegun would get issued a B.A.R. Officers of course always had a sidearm, like a pistol or revolver, and company commanders and NCOs usually got submachineguns or carbines due to their importance in the squad. The M1 was the standard issue rifle of the U.S. military.

 

But, why was the SMG or Carbine issued to important people? I don't really get it, still. Why not give a Thompson or Carbine to a regular soldier?

 

Carbines and Thompsons used pistol ammunition and lots of it. When you have to carry every round into combat with you, you do not want to have it wasted for no reason. These are weapons that are only good in close combat and tight surroundings. And very few of them were actually issued to troops. Most of them were issued to MPs and others who had special details where they would not be able to swing a long rifle quickly. Those used in combat, often were due to 'special' procurements. For example, I had a highly modified M2 carbine in a custom holster that I carried in Vietnam. I bought it from a guy going home and had to leave it. Other than finding it hard to get ammo, it was a comfort to have backup.

 

See, that makes sense to me, what Seadog wrote, I get it now!

Having to lug around pistol ammo would be a bother, eh? I can see why only important people who wouldn't have time to use a big long rifle would be into using a Thompson or an M1 Carbine!

Thanks for you help!

 

during world war 2 british non coms would have firstly a thompson then a sten when they were introduced. officers had pistols whilst privates would have had the lee enfield rifle p;us of course those in each platoon that showed competance would have had the bren gun.however as Seadog notes soldiers the world over are magpies and will 'obtain' anything that they think is better than what they have, hence pictures of british paras at arnham with m1 carbines etc

 

So if you had one gun, and you found a dead soldier, or even a fellow living soldier, you could just switch weapons with him? I never really thought of that before, sorta neat!

I always just assumed that whatever gun you were issued you had to stick with! But now that you mention it I have noticed that happening. The only example I can think of off the top of my head would be, since I just watched Band Of Brothers, the one character is always trying to find a Luger, and in one episode, one of the american paratroopers takes an MP40 and uses it as his main weapon!

 

Peter, first of all a soldier in a unit will have to fight with the weapon that is pertaining to his post. For instance, a rifle squad is composed (varying with countries) of two groups: rifle group and collective weapon group (light machine gun in miscellaneous flavours, Bren, MG42, BAR, FM29, etc.). The squad leader will (again depending on army) will be equipped with a rifle, carbine or sub-machine gun.

In most general terms, the rifle group function is to advance and occupy terrain, while the LMG group provides covering fire. This is what is drilled into their brains in training, it's what their commanders expect them to do.

The weapons they are issued with are the most appropriate provided by their army to perform their function, that is, a rifle for a rifleman; light machine gun for the LMG gunner plus pistol for his self-defence, pistol/carbine/rifle for his No.2&3, etc.

Now if every rifleman in a squad decides that captured Schmeissers are cooler there goes the performance the leaders of that squad expected of it, as the range at which the rifle group is expected to have effect is shortened to 1/4 what it was supposed to be. Yes, the short range fire volume will be much higher (which is ok if you are going to work on city fighting) but the long range effect will be zero. The short range effects of those captrured SMGs won't be much too as those pistol calibre rounds won't be much worth at piercing targets, so you're not gaining much by it.

Also in some armies you are supposed to be issued with a serialled number weapon and you are responsible for it. That is, you lose it and you are in quite hot water with your platoon sargent and you most likely will have to pay for it to the State out of your own pocket, so you'd better think twice before abandoning your Garand for that shiny MP-44.

Besides, as soon as you spend the three cartridges you stripped from that dead Kraut where are you going to find more? If the receiver gets jammed out of shape, who is going to give you another in replacement?

Real life is one thing, Hollywood another. Of course exceptions are exceptions, but that's exactly why they are called exceptions

 

There is a little more to it than that, keep in mind that the job of a section or platoon commander at that time was to lead, not to suppress the enemy (which is the job of riflemen and MG's most of the time). The theory is that a commander isn't going to need his weapon most of the time other than for personal defense against close enemies, for which an SMG is ideal. Since he isn't expected to use it much, he also won't carry much ammo, which resolves the problem mentioned by seadog.

Incidentally, a lot of armies issued specific weapons to specialist groups of soldiers, for example in the Red Army scouts, sub-machine gun companies and tank riders were issued large numbers of SMG's. The logic being that scouts (hopefully) aren't likely to be seen unless they are close to the enemy (and when they do they need to put down a massive volume of fire to cover a hasty retreat) whilst SMG companies and scout riders are intended to move close to the enemy under cover from other units and then engage in sudden close combat for which a massive volume of short range fire.

However, as has been said, at the end of the day you are issued what the leadership believe you need to accomplish you're task, that's what you keep because at the end of the day they are the ones who decide what ammunition and supplies you got.

 

Different armies have differnt rules and usage. Russian weapons are made to use NATO rounds in a pinch, but their ammo will not work in NATO weapons. When the opportunity arises, a soldier will try to procure anything that may be of use in the conceivable future. The issued weapon is never abandoned, but it can be secured with the duffle if a soldier has something different he prefers. And a no unit, whether it be squad or company, will allow a member to use a weapon that they feel will endanger the mission. But leaders also know that they do not always use have the best weapons for every application. For example, I was in a unit that switched from M16s and M60s, to M14s and M2s. Only certain people were issued M14s capable of full automatic. However, I scrounged.....er, obtained 20 more conversion kits. During a war game, it made the difference in two engagements. If we had gone into combat, I have no doubts that I would have made efforts to add a few M60s to 'assist' the M2.

A foot soldier in a tropic climate will be paying close attention to ammo weight. Mobile units will care less about how much ammo weight they have. Or about how many different ammo types they have.

And finally, certain units have reign to use any weapon that they want, and have several weapons for each member to be used as the mission required.

 

Most armies double up the training on weapon systems. Every grunt in the squad can handle the MG. This is not just in case the gunner dies, but for mundane tasks aswell. Sitting on post with the MG for example. My Jaeger unit on the border was initially light infantry, but we learnt how to operate all of our own weapons, and the Russians too.

As for a Platoon Commander or section leader his job is to lead, not fight the enemy on his own. The weapon configuration for a commander with a SMG is reflected on that. However I know no Norwegian officer who has used it on duty. The G3 or G36 or M16 pending on Theatre of Operations makes the officers look like riflemen wich is a real boon, and you dont have to be the guy using 9mm ammo.

 

It has to do with organization. For example, a Squad consists of 11 men. Of that, there would be a certain number who were assigned rifles, automatic machine pistols, grenade launchers and so on. Squad/platoon leaders were assigned pistols and rifles. As the war progressed the rifles were replaced with Machine pistols.

So, it is pretty much determined by the position a soldier was assigned to.

 

Didn't knew this. Are you sure you can use a 5.56 NATO round in an AK74 ?

 

I will not swear to it. I was taught that the AK-47 would be able to fire a NATO 7.62 and that it goes to a long standing USSR policy. The russian forces have always been strong on using captured arms due to the problems with resupply they often experienced. My experience was over 20 years ago, and I have not kept up with the current weaponry that much.

 

I have heard a similar thing but do not have actual proof. I will try to find some, and wont use WIKI as a source

 

I doubt it. The AK-47 loads a 7.62x39mm round, whereas the nato 7.62 is 51mm long, so you would need to saw off 12mm for it to fit

 

The AK74 is classified as a 5.45mm round, but according to my sources, it is actually 5.62 bore. I know that many of the former Warsaw pact nations have gone to a modified version that uses the 5.56 NATO ammo. I doubt that even if they had to, it would be as effective. And if you capture enemy ammo, why not the weapons too? I would rather go into combat with a current M16 than the AK47 or 74. Despite the hoopla about how reliable they are, they are not really that great. Most comparisons were from pre-1967 model M16s that had a lot of faults.

It could be that my early teaching was an old wives tale. At 18, you take a lot of things for granted. I do not see how the rounds could be interchangable. However, there could have been a time that a quick field modification could have been made to allow the use of NATO ammo.

It probably goes back to the 7.62x54 Russian round that the Soviets use in their machine guns and sniper rifles. I would imagine that the NATO rounds can be used in them with few problems.

 

Peter:

The first thing that determines what weapon(s) an individual was issued was the Table of Orgainzation for the unit that individual was in. For example, using the US infantry squad in WW 2, there would be a BAR gunner armed with a Browning Automatic Rifle. He had two assistant gunners who carry extra clips and are armed with M1 rifles. Four men were designated grenadiers and carried either M1 or M1905 Springfield rifles along with being issued a rifle grenade launcher adapter. The balance of the squad, 5 men (including a squad leader and assistant leader) were issued M1 rifles too.
The Infantry company headquarters had a number of Thompson SMGs (usually a dozen) that could be issued as needed to the squads. This is where many squad or platoon leaders get one.
Carbines were issued to gun crews (like machinegun crews, mortar crews, etc) for self-defense. Few frontline infantrymen would elect to carry a carbine due to its poor stopping and penetrative power. Also, the dissimilar ammunition would be a problem.
Now, once in combat a unit would make some modifications to its equipment based on experiance. For the US squad these typically included dropping 3 of the grenade launchers and retaining just one or maybe two in use. Some units aquired a second BAR when possible. Ammunition loads almost always increased. The standard US issue was 6 clips on the BAR man, and 4 on each of the assistant gunners. Most units carried more or at a minimum augmented their ammo by carrying loose rounds in cotton bandoleers.
Many units also had every man in a company carry a single 60mm mortar bomb forward to drop off with the mortar crews before entering the line.
For the Germans, the normal squad had a leader with a submachinegun, a machinegunner (usually a picked man who was the best operator) and 7 to 10 men with K98 rifles. All of the riflemen carried one or two boxes of ammunition for the machinegun as this was the key weapon in the squad.
Few infantry squads wanted a selection of weapons using different ammunition. This made redistribution of ammo in combat more difficult or impossible. A squad or platoon leader would choose an SMG only on the basis of using it as a self-defense weapon where they were expected to be spending more of their time directing the squad than fighting themselves.
Enemy weapons were not generally favored on an ongoing basis. First, their distinctive sound made it dangerous to use as it could draw friendly fire. Second, ammunition would be an ongoing problem as few opposition weapons used the same round as friendly ones.
The dissimilar weapon issue is big. Late war German squads more and more had two or three types of ammunition to deal with. First, they had 7.92mm rifle ammo for the K98 rifles and their machinegun. Next, they had the short 7.92mm Kurtzer round for men carrying a SG 43/44 assault rifle. They would also have to possibly carry 9mm rounds for pistols and a MP 40 SMG if one was present.

 

The origial question was: what determines what weapon you were issued, or which weapon you would be allowed to carry?

Many factors were involved, far too many to give any short, glip rule of thumb. One of the factors was the weapon(s) you were train to use. In a standardized and uniformed army comprized of mostly trained civilians you are probaly going to stick with the weapon(s) you have been taught to use.

Another factor is the availability of weapons. The Soviets had the reputation of having, at least at time, more soldiers than weapons, so unarmed soldiers were sent in to attack with NO WEAPON, with the expectation that they would pick up the weapon of a dead comrade.

Due to the expected mission requirements early in the war British Commandos wanted to arm a high percentage of their troops with Thompson SMGs, only to the horror of someone in logistics to discover there were only about 50 functionsl Thompsons in all of Britian in 1939, with many of these privately owned. This shortage lead to the rapid development of cheaper version of the Thompson as wel as the development of the Sten-gun (very cheap to mass produce)

There are instances of great indulgence in some units. Such elite units as the Alamo Scouts (US Army in the Philipines) the individual was allowed to carry whatever weapon they desired and had the ammunition, remembering they had to carry both weapon & basic load of ammo through a hot jungle, while maintaining the ability to pass without being seen or heard.

As an army advanced and the enemy retreated suddenly more weapons become available and the individual may have more options. I have heard of cases of soldiers exchanging their weapons for a lighter weapon, a weapon of greater range, or one with faster cycle rate, but this all too often lead to a logistical nightmare.

 

Seadog, may I refer you to this grate site from a member of this forum?

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/