US, allies weigh punishment for Russia

Gerorgia has existed in one form or another before the birth of Christ, this came to it's peak with the Kingdom of Georgia circa 1008AD to 1236AD when the Mongols came and conquered it and partitioned it into smaller kingdoms.

A second Kingdom was estblished under King Heraclius II in 1762 but this was doomed to fail with the signing of the Treaty of Georgievsk in 1783 which the Kingdom of Gerogia came under protection of Russian Empire.

Under dubious circumstances Tzar Paul I of Russia under a questionable request from Georgian Monarch King George XII proclaimed on 22nd December 1800 that the Russian Empire annexed the Kingdom of Georgia and this was ratified on the 12th September 1801.

And then after WW1 did Georgia proclaimed her independence once more on the 26th May 1918, but again the state of Georgia was not to last and then it was attacked by the Soviet Red Army in February 1921, the democratically elected government fled and in 1936 Georgia became know as the Georgian SSR.

Finally the last vestige of Georgia as we know it today began with Georgia having gone through Soviet brutality in the massacre of Tblisi on the 9th April 1989 when a demonstration by Georgian turned into a massacre when Soviet Troops open fired on the unarmed demostrators. Finally Georgia proclaimed her independence 9th April 1991.

So according to Wikipedia the state of Georgia is not some recent event but a continious evolution of thousands of years.

v.R

 

Anyone aware of the losses and suffering endured by the South Ossetian people during these last 6 days?

I wonder what their fate might have been had Russia not stepped in and protected them as promised?

Interesting how nothing is reported here in the U.S. on their misery nor the fact that while attacking Georgia killed 13 Russian peace keepers........ So much for free and fair, psh!

 

I would not buy a used car from Saakashvili.

But can you tell me why Russia has supported economically and politically Eduard Kokoity, and why Kokoity has not accepted possible autonomy which would be a stepping stone towards independence?

 

Hehehe, just watched Russia snatch the gold medal in Foil, Female

Something that bugs me. In 1991 the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics peacefully dissolved in its own accord into 15 different successor Republics: Estonia, Latvia, Lituania; Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan; Armenia, Arzebaijan, Georgia; Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine; Russia.

This split was accompanied by a complete dispersion of economic and military assets: plants and military gear belonged to where they were. That was how some republics inherited a number of ICBMs, for instance, which they all gladly 'offered' to Russia, with some 'encouragement' from the international community Another example is the former Soviet Baikonur complex that Kazakhstan keeps obligingly renting to Russia for its space venures. Or the Antonov plant that stayed in Kharkiv (or Karkhov r.)

Unless the Russians are very slow moving in their quest for Empire II, I don't quite see a pattern in reconquering all these. An entity was created, the CIS - Confederation of Independent States - which is composed of all these except the Baltic and Georgian Republics, but this 'Confederation' seems to exist only as a very loose club, its members are as the name says independent.

If the idea was to allow independence and then spend the next centuries reconquering what was peacefully given up, then it looks like a very long term prospect to me, but I'm sure somebody knows better.

 

Wikipedia is not as bad as people say it is, but looking at your chronology I see some very long time gaps where 'evolution' was not so 'continuous' as you say. In any case, to allay your angst here is Georgia as a full fledged independent country again. Another hiccup for 'continuity'.

Today I read in the papers about 118,000 dislocated persons.

Ah, yes, the Rose Revolution and it's aftermath. Murky politics in a murky country. Add corruption, organised crime to the mixture and you got yourself a fine soup.

And adding the complete lack of tact in what concerns with relations with a grumpy, bigger neighbour, then the fact that this one gets annoyed shouldn't be no big surprise

"Spy" accusations, interfering with closing Russian bases, confrontational language, etc. About the wine that the Russians stopped importing a few years ago, S. comment was "we could sell them sh**, they'd still drink it", nice, eh? All tyhis and more.

And there's also the case where the South Ossetians claim a Russian Passport, 70% or 90% depending on the sources I've read. Holding a passport from a state means one has the nationality of that state and is recognized as a citizen by the state issuing said passport. That means that a large majority of South Ossetians are Russian citizens. Does this imply anything? I think it does.

 

It must have cost alot to do this in 2006...

Georgians deported from Russia as 2-nation diplomatic war heats up - USATODAY.com

 

So Russia can just invade a country and spit on international laws, not to mention that she is not respecting the truce agreement and keeps sending forced inside Georgia while claiming she is withdrawing?

South Ossetia is Georgia according to international laws and Georgia wanted to recover her OWN territory. Yes this was risky business and certainly not a wise thing to do and Georgia started, but Georgia did not attack Russia and did not cross international borders.
When Russia sent forces to Chechenia a few years ago, she did the same (recovering control over their own territory) so Russia should be coherent for a start and respect the fact that a country wants to preserve its territorial integrity. Yes the Georgians are but a small minority in Ossetia, but that wasn't a problem for Russia when the Serbian minority in Kosovo ( about 10%) wanted to keep Kosovo , or was it?

 

Skipper, i think rules of the game changed after Kosovo.

If we actually compare the whole event from Balcan, then it's not so different from situasion on Caucasus (spelling). Serbs was doing pretty much the same of what Georgians planned to do. When we (NATO ) the third party went in and bombed the hell out of Serbia. Let me remind you, Serbs were on their territory, just like Gergians now. Now, this year Kosovo declaired independence and who reconized them first?!? Countries who were most active in bombing Serbia, what a surprise!

So, none supporting western actions towards Kosovo, Iraq or the idea of protecting country's interests by almost any means necessary does not have any even smallest right to critisise Russia over current actions in Georgia.

 

You make a point there Troglodyte, you may be surprised that I did not back the Nato bombing of Serbia (see Kosovo thread) and thought the Russian policy on that matter was coherent because they supported Serbia's territorial integrity. This time they seem to have forgotten their own principles, this is why I think they are wrong. Showing their strenght to Nato is one thing , especially with the Poland missile affair, but crushing georgia to do so is a bit of a dirty job, if you ask me.

 

Do I know all the facts on the ground? No. Do you? No.

Remember me using the word 'murky'?

 

Skipper I hear you!

I do belive that conflict coud've been avoided if Russians pulled their peacekeepers out and replaced them with some EU forces.
Don't think they would've agree to NATO or even UN forces. But if they really wanted to avoid the conflict - i belive they could've done some arrangments with French/German/Brits. I'm 100 percent sure Sakashvilli would't dear to start some sh!t that could harm "western" peacekeepers!
Then S. Osetia and Abkhazia could go by the path of Kosovo. Peacefully.

But i guess both sides thought escalation of conflict could be for their best.
Georgia probably wanted involvment of her "big" allies. And , i guess, Russian liders wanted some victoriuos blitzkrieg. To show the world - Russia is back on the horse. Well, neither benefits us, average citizens.

 

The Polish President Lech Kaczynski on Saturday criticized Germany and France for what he considered their pliability vis a vis Russia in the current crisis in the Caucasus.
Kaczynski said he was disappointed that the European Union decisions in the Georgian crisis were made 'between Berlin and Paris."

Polish President Kaczynski criticizes Berlin, Paris over Russia

Yet Kaczynski was back in Poland yesterday -- and at it again. "We can't stay neutral when a great power uses its size advantage to descend on a smaller country," he said. "Here a large country that once did this to us -- in other words, made sure that Poland would suffer under oppression, that Poland wouldn't have its independence, that we wouldn't be able to choose what kind of country we lived in -- here's this country descending on someone else, and Poland is supposed to stay neutral. Well, that's something that I just can't understand."

Old Europe vs. New Europe: Will Poland Split EU Over Russia Policy? - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

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13 Aug 2008

Lavrov said Russia's military action had been "a proportionate response to an unprovoked assault on it citizens".

Moscow has "no intention of annexing or occupying any part of Georgia and has again affirmed its respect for its sovereignty," he said.

SOCHI, Russia, Aug 16

Russia will pull out troops from the conflict zone in Georgia once additional security arrangements are put in place, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Saturday.

( Does this mean days, weeks or months?)

 

This is my point. changing territorial integrity would create a precedent. It could be a delayed bomb for Russia in the first place. They may win territory here (or puppet states with the population that is less than a town) but what if other territories within Russia start claiming independence (Checenia or others? )

 

He he... International laws do not apply inside Russia! Almost like in China.

 

The separatists serve their purpose now for Russia, but when/if Ossetia unites they will never get independence, they become part of Russia and the separatists "vanish" mysteriously.....Russia will never let go of North ossetia which is what the separatists want.

 

Most likeley what you sad will accure.