Dresden casualty figures "lower than believed"

WW2 bombings killed less than believed - WalesOnline

 

I am not troubled if the figures are lower, but HOW did they confirm these results?

 

Well, it says that the original records on recovery and burial of the dead were very well kept, but you wonder just how well kept. And also why no-one seems to have consulted them before.

 

If people were badly burnt or simply skeletons left, or buried in groups, that is difficult to know how many and who. Especially after years. Unless they can prove nothing of the sort took place.

 

That takes it down to the level of forensic archaeology, Kai. That hadn't been invented in 1945, but it exists now.

 

I wonder if the fact that Dresden was in the Soviet zone for so many years may have kept the archives out of the hands of scholars? The Soviets themselves would be more than happy to have its former allies in the west protrayed in a less than favorable light, would they NOT?

 

Very good point, Clint. And there are many in the west more than happy to take Soviet propaganda as gospel.

 

..not only that but the original figures 'published' were doubtless from Herr Goebbel's ministry

 

The real total has always been known. The problem started when Irving added an extra '0' on the end in his book. He even wrote to The Times to correct this error:
The Times, London, July 7, 1966

THE DRESDEN RAIDS

"From Mr. David Irving

Sir, -- Your newspaper has an enviable reputation for accuracy, and
your readiness to correct the smallest errors from one day to the
next is an inspiration to your readers; but how can a historian
correct a mistake, when once he finds himself to have been wrong? I
ask the indulgence of your columns.

The bombing of Dresden in 1945 has in recent years been adduced by
some people as evidence that conventional bombing can be more
devastating than nuclear attacks, and others have sought to draw
false lessons from this. My own share of the blame for this is
large: in my 1963 book _The Destruction of Dresden_ I stated that
estimates of the casualties in that city varied between 35,000 and
over 200,000.

The higher figures did not seem absurd when the circumstances were
taken into account. I had tried for three years to bring to light
German documents relating to the damage, but the east German
authorities were unable to assist me. Two years ago I procured from
a private east German source what purported to be extracts from the
Police President's report, quoting the final death-roll as "a quarter
of a million"; the other statistics it contained were accurate, but
it is now obvious that the death-roll statistic was falsified,
probably in 1945.

The east German authorities (who had originally declined to provide
me with the documents) have now supplied to me a copy of the 11-page
"final report" written by the area police chief about one month after
the Dresden raids, and there is no doubt as to this document's
authenticity. In short, the report shows that the Dresden casualties
were on much the same scale as in the heaviest Hamburg raids in 1943.
The document's author, the _Hoehere SS- und Polizeifuehrer Elbe_,
was responsible for civil defence measures in Dresden, it should be
noted.

His figures are very much lower than those I quoted. The crucial
passage reads: "Casualties: by 10th March, 1945, 18,375 dead, 2,212
seriously injured, and 13,918 slightly injured had been registered,
with 350,000 homeless and permanently evacuated." The total
death-roll, "primarily women and children," was expected to reach
25,000; fewer than a hundred of the dead were servicemen. Of the
dead recovered by then, 6,865 had been cremated in one of the city
squares. A total of 35,000 people were listed as "missing".

The general authenticity of the report is established beyond doubt,
because within a very few days of receiving the first, a second
wartime German report was supplied to me, this time from a western
source. It repeats _exactly_ the figures listed in the above report,
upon which it was evidently based.

The second report, a Berlin police summary of "Air Raids on Reich
Territory", dated March 22, 1945, was found, quite by chance,
misfiled among the 25,000 Reich Finance Ministry files currently
being explored at the west German Federal Archives. It was forwarded
to me by one of their archivists, Doctor Boberach.

I have no interest in promoting or perpetuating false legends, and I
feel it is important that in this respect the record should be set
straight.

I remain, Sir, your obedient servant,

DAVID IRVING.

25 Elgin Mansions, W.9."

He has since gone back to his original total but the facts in the above cannot be disputed.

 

they will be disputed Michael till the end of time

let us not forget the destruction was not just at Dresden but Meißen and the surrounding villages besides other major cities in Eastern Germany, I have always wondered if the German prop ministry added these casualties together and summed it up for personal reasons for Dresden proper ?

 

I do not dispute that a lot of people died. 25,000 is a lot by any standards. Inflating them by a factor of 10 just means they get forgotten about in a fight over numbers. Irving is the main source for the 250,000+ total. Anyone who uses this or a larger total is easily ridiculed and thus loses any credibility.

 

m kenny is quite right, and the whole story of Irving and the Dresden casualty figures can be read ( in great detail ) in Richard J Evans' book, 'Telling Lies About Hitler', published in 2002.

 

Disection of Irving's methods:

HDOT : Irving v. Lipstadt : Defense Documents : David Irving, Hitler and Holocaust Denial: Electronic Edition

Whole document:

HDOT : Irving v. Lipstadt : Defense Documents

 

Gentlemen am not arguing with either of you in fact I am more in-line with the things I have read the past year on this battle by day and night. Sadly I have WW 2 living relatives in Germany that still believe in closeness to some 100,000 killed and for certain none of them have heard of Mr. Irving or his studies nor even care.

v/r E ~

 

Quite, the Dresden bombings and the obvious suffering involved have been incredibly exploited by almost the whole political spectrum.

As we know, Goebbels made a very big deal out of it as an example of Allied cruelty, then the Soviets claimed it highlighted the inherent evil of western imperialism, David Irving generated a best seller with his account which originally quoted between 100-250k, this provided the starting block for the neo-nazi who like to suggest that this means the allies were as big war criminals as the nazis.

The interesting point for me is how it's never really been exploited by the Allies responsible for the operation.

Good to see Germany taking the initiative against the growth of the far right.

Has he? I believed he'd slowly decreased his figure as new editions were printed.

 

I wish I'd kept the link...(I came accross it while researching something else.)

Story of a underground type bunker in Dresden with 240+ bodys found...in 1947, two years after the war ended. The bombing had covered the enterance.
There was a dark photo attached.

Anyone know of this?

neil

 

on the history channel they said the casualties were over 3000 but that is a gross estimation

 

Is History Channel a quotable source?

 

Sure it is Za. It's quotable for a good laugh

 

We"ll proobably never know, and like Erich said we can comment on this until the end of time, but the commie figure which situated the toll between 25.000 and 35.000 was one of the first to get an accuarate figure without the modern technology.