SS and SA for Dummies???

I still find it confusing differentiating the two. I have a basic understanding, I think. (SS was a strictly miltary, or quasi-military, bunch, right? Or was it SA? See? )

Just when I think I have a handle, I lose it when I read of activities I thought were the province of one or the other.

It would go a long way cementing an understanding if I had a grip on a few concepts, along with a sidewalk definition of the two:

Whose idea was it, anyway, these off-shoots? What was the miltary's take on these units? What were their roles? Did they crossover? What was their opinion of the other? Could one become one, than the other? Were they compensated like regular soldiers? What were their relationship to the civil authorities? What was Hitler's assesment of each? Whom did they answer to?

Actually, as the title suggests, I sure could use a copy of SS and SA for Dunnies if one existed.

A tall order, I know. But if anyone can do it, it'll be here. Thanks.

 

The SA was the original, formed to provide security at Nazi Party meetings. It quickly grew larger, and the SA would intimidate and fight rival parties. Its leader, a guy by the name of Rohm, was very ambitious and had plans of his own to rule Germany. By this point, Hitler had formed the SS, his own personal bodyguard. Himmler and the like were also around and were already whispering in Hitlers ear, seeking favor. They also saw the threat Rogm possessed, especially as the numbers of the SA were larger then the Standing Army of Germany. They trumped up charges on Rohm, also accusing him of being Gay, and in one night they killed Rohm and several other prominent figures in the SA. Hitler then disbaned the SA and incorporated it into the SS.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

Both sprang from the early 'Beer-hall' days.
The SA was formed by Hitler in 1920 as a primary instrument of 'street action'.
The SS has it's roots in the 'stabswache' or 'HQ guard' of 1923 (which quickly became the 'stosstrupp Adolf Hitler'), and was formalised as a personal 'protection squad' in 1925 when Goering gave them the title 'SchutzStaffel', small cadres of c.10 men in each district that could guard the putative fuhrer. In 1929 Himmler became SS head and membership expanded vigorously from that point onward, from a few hundred to thousands.
The SA became too large for the comfort of Hitler's closest gang after power was obtained and was 'liquidated in '34 as it was seen as too large (and 'decadent') a power-block to allow to continue.

Put roughly; The SA was the 'official' mass paramilitary arm of the Nazi party from 1920-1934, the SS always more closely associated with the personal protection of Hitler by the 'SchutzStaffel' - up until that night when the Black Uniforms finally replaced the Brown Shirts as the primary blurring between civilian, political, and militarist groups in the Reich.

To confuse things further, there was also the 'SS-VT' or 'SS-Verfugenstruppe' formed as larger more militarised units around '33, the Origin of the armed or 'waffen' SS as a distinct wing to the 'Allgemeine SS' or 'General SS' that formed their essential political, social, and bureaucratic core'.

Their story defies any simplistic explanation and encompassess many other sub-groups and spin-offs within both the SS & SA but that's as close as I can explain in a quick blurt, hope it makes some sense.

SA/brownshirts = primary instrument of civil disorder, thuggery, and dirty jobs prior to the 'night of the long knives'.
SS took over that role, only in a somewhat more organised, clinical, and 'efficient' manner after the SA's 'removal'.

Cheers,
Adam.

Edit: -Cross-posted with Musso above.

 

Musso, I'm not going to presume to correct you because I don't find you wrong.

An euphemism for street thuggery.

 

To expand on what I have previously said etc:

The early 1920's was a time of political upheaval to the point where clashes between political parties would often times be violent. There were thousands of soldiers who had returned home from WWI and they would often start and form these Paramilitary groups. These paramilitary groups were originally created as a sort of Militia, since Germany didn't have an Army, and to keep the peace. These militia units were very ineffective and usually disbanded when confronted (as was the case with a militia unit squaring off with some communists) as they didn't really want to fight for the German Government any longer.

The Nazis Rallies/Meetings were often disrupted by rivals, so the SA was formed to protect the meetings. The song, Horst Wessel Lied, was an early Nazi Propoganda song. It was written in hnor of Horst Wessel, a Nazi killed during a fight with the Communists in the early 1920's.

As the SA grew in number, due to the violence and unemployed youths seeking employment - and a chance to beat some people up - we start to see mass parades of these Brown Shirts marching down streets (Hitler was a sucker for parades). It helped draw attention to the Nazi Party and intimidate their rivals.

The SA also grew in size as it incorporated other paramilitary groups into its ranks, usually united in their hatred of the Weimar Republic. The Stahlhelm was another popular paramilitary group, that numbered about 2,000 members in 1920 and 750,000 in May, 1933 when it was incorporated in the SA. Keep in mind that the Reicswehr, the German Army, was only allowed to consist of 100,000 troops.

In 1933, the SA was the singularly most power force in Germany. It consisted of all national militias and veteran organizations. Rohm, the leader of the SA, had 4.5 Million Men under his command. Rohm had ambitions to be the leader of Germany himself, and clearly had the man power to do so.

Hitler had formed the SS by now as his personal bodyguard, and to counter the influence of the SA. He decided, in 1933, that Rohm was too powerful of a threat, so had him executed. SS Commandos at the same time were also executing (liquidating) other prominent SA Officials in the Stadelheim and Dachau concentration camps. They would announce the fate of the SA officials with this: "You have been setenced to death by the Fuhrer! Heil Hitler!"

At this point, Hitler abolished all militant groups in Germany, including the SA. Hitler understood how dangerous the paramilitary groups could be. The SA had carried out Hitlers promise. "We [the Nazis] have to teach the Marxists thats National Socialism is the future master of the street, just as it shall be the future master of the state." The SA taught the Marxists that National Socialism ruled the streets.


I hope this helps clear things up.

 

And don't forget/neglect that the SS was originally an offshoot of the SA, and in some newreel footage a subservient Himmler can be seen handing papers to a seated Rohm who is clearly in charge in his own office.

Then, while the SA was on top, the SS wore the SA Brownshirts with differences only in kepi (black), tie (black), and breeches (black). And even after the SA was gone from the scene the brownshirt uniform remained as the "casual" dress for Nazi party officials, many are spotted in propaganda shots of Hitler and his closest entourage. Borman and Dr. Morell are almost always in SA dress when not in civilian suits.

 

Reading about the origins of these paramilitary units, I am given to thoughts of modern day gangs. While no doubt present day thuggery is far from politcal in nature, to say the least, I think the lure to the young--and not so young--is not totally unlike that of 1920-30 Germany. A tad over simplified, yes, but a thought.

Overall, a flowing fount of useful data. Thanks, one and all. I'm confident I can now hold my own in a give and take. At least be able to follow along and not feel a dummy.

 

How so was the SS an offshoot of the SA? It wasn't subservient to it, the SS was created for a different purpose (to protect Hitler). Neither was under the other. Think of it as the Army vs. Navy. If anything the SS was above the SA, as the SS was used to eliminate the powerful SA Leaders and then the SA was disbanded while the SS continued on.

 

For the uninitiated, I think the book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" contains a wealth of information on the SA and the SS. The book also contains the tale on how Rohm and the SA fell.
And as Za said earlier, the posts explaining the differences about the two are excellent.

 

I Think it's reasonable to call the SS an offshoot originally.
The Stabswache was an SA unit and this transformed to the Stosstruppe, schreck & Berchtold were SA members (were they??). They may have only technically become the 'SS' after Hitler's release from prison and Schreck's reappointment as head of the bodyguard but their roots were still in the Brownshirts, no matter how distinct they quickly became.

It'd be interesting to look at lists of those early cadres members, sure I've seen one somewhere?

Cheers,
Adam.

 

I think if you start at the night of the long knives june 30 1934, the night Ernst Rohm, and the SA were basiclly wiped out by the ss you cant go far wrong IMHO.

 

Not the SA, the cupola of the SA... Technically the SS were an offshoot from SA at inception, but in the fluid world of Nazi "organisation" they very soon followed different paths. By the way, when does the chicken farmer begin to show up?

 

This explains the situation pretty well, even the "tangles and webs" of the NSDAP are rather well laid out:

Henrich Himmler was the son of a pious, Roman Catholic schoolmaster who had once been tutor to the Bavarian Crown Prince, Himmler was educated at a secondary school in Landshut. He served as an officer cadet in the Eleventh Bavarian Regiment at the end of World War I, later obtaining a diploma in agriculture from Munich Technical High School where he studied from 1918 to 1922.

After working briefly as a salesman for a firm of fertilizer manufacturers, the young Himmler joined a para-military, nationalist organization and participated in the Munich Beer-Hall putsch of November 1923 as standard-bearer at the side of Ernst Röhm, Secretary to Gregor Strasser and his deputy district leader in Bavaria, Swabia and the Palatinate, he was also acting propaganda leader of the NSDAP from 1925 to 1930.

After marrying in 1927, Himmler returned to poultry farming for a time but was singularly unsuccessful in the business of raising chickens. In January 1929 he was appointed head of Hitler's personal bodyguard, the black-shirted Schutzstaffel (SS), at that time a small body of 200 men which was subsequently to become under his leadership an all-embracing empire within the Nazi State.

Elected in 1930 to the Reichstag as Nazi deputy for Weser-Ems, Himmler concentrated on extending SS membership - which reached 52,000 by 1933 - and securing its independence from control by Röhm’s SA, to which it was initially subordinated. He organized the Security Service (SD) under Reinhard Heydrich, originally an ideological intelligence service of the Party, and together the two men ensured that the Nazis consolidated their power over Bavaria in 1933.

In March 1933 Himmler was appointed Munich Police President and shortly afterwards he became Commander of the political police throughout Bavaria. In September 1933 he was made Commander of all political police units outside Prussia and, though formally under Göring, he became head of the Prussian Police and Gestapo on 20 April 1934. The turning-point in Himmler's career was his masterminding of the purge of 30 June 1934 which smashed the power of the SA and paved the way for the emergence of the SS as an independent organization charged with 'safeguarding the . . . embodiment of the National Socialist idea' and translating the racism of the regime into a dynamic principle of action.

From:

Routledge Who's Who in Nazi Germany


I had forgotten that even Himmler was connected to the Bavarian Regiments, so Himmler, Hess, Hitler, and Röhm all served or were in that grouping. I would suppose that after Röhm fled to Bolivia after the failed Beer Hall Putsch, Himmler weaseled his way toward the top until Röhm returned and started to re-take control of the SA.

 

He might have had more success if he had tried to raise geese instead! They already know how to march in Goose Step at any rate...

 

That was my unstated point Now if Adolf had found a supply of better brushes at a decent price...

 

Wasn't the SA in power way before Hitler and the SS rose to power?
Like there was no such thing as nazi's when SA was first invented?
Wern't the SA classed as a police unit?
And i was right about SA being murdered by the SS over there power, you just mentioned it in you're post. YAY.

 

1) Already replied to above.

The SA was the strong-arm of the Nazi Party (NSDAP - Party of the National Socialist German Workers), created to protect their rallies against other parties who had similar militias.

2) Corollary of above, the Nazi Party came first, the SA emanated from them.

3) No, the Police was one thing - a State security and order organ; a band of thugs acting for a party is another one.

4) The cupola of the SA was murdered in the Night of the Long Knives, the SA kept on existing under more accomodating leaders. See Night of the Long Knives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Oh i see, They wern't a police unit, ok i got you now.
But i thought SA was around in ww1 way before Nazi's was even invented, that's what mousilinni stated, if so what where they. If they were for the german goverment, there was no nazi's involed yet, so they can't of been to roughless and brutel could they? I know i got spelling mistakes but i don't know how to spell those words.

 

Firefoxy do you mean Stoßtruppen ?

Stormtrooper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia