Tanks ramming through buildings

Did this happen at all as general practice in WW2 or was it mainly a "kelly's heroes" and "propaganda" thing?

I ask this because a German run French newsreel during the war depicted Tiger tanks crashing through buildings.

 

There are photos from sequences of tanks busting through houses in many nations. There is a photo on JCs WW1 to WW2 tanks of a German marked FT17 doing it, which was very brave of the Ft as I thought it should be House 1. FT 0.

There is a Photo of artichoke a Churchill Mk2 of 14th Can. Tank Bat. doing a house on Isle of Wight U.K in the run up to Dieppe.

The Germans proposed the Ram tiger which had no other purpose than the deliberate ramming of buildings -it didn't get built possibly a Porshe Tiger may not have had sufficient grunt as the gradiant figure of the type was lower that the norm. and that a good measure of tractive force.

I'll try and get some photos uploaded later today Sunday (evening in Britain). unless some-one else uploads them up in the meantime.

The spectaclar alternative is the U.S. trick of busting telegraph poles and jumping tanks.

As J.W. said

,- but it looks good for the dignitries, but never really an option in battle.

Steve

 

Did the allies try something like the "Ram tiger? " It may have been useful.

 

Please tell me more about this. I've never heard of it before.

I have also heard that while tanks can bust through buildings and knock down trees, it's mainly done for propaganda films. As pointed out, there are risks to the tank and it wouldn't normally be done in battle.

An ex-army acquaintance told me how he was driving a Centurion tank along a road, and accidentally clipped a tree with one of the fenders. A huge branch came down, and covered the commander in his cupola. Nobody was hurt, but that's the kind of thing that can happen. Even driving a tank on a peaceful exercise can be dangerous.

 

It wasnt planned but I am sure the Churchill could have been modified for that purpose as it could already be switched around for many purposes. The Sherman would be a likely second candidate but it didn't have the proper engine necessary to rm through a building.

 

Dont know about buildings but the Sherman could be used for lots of un-designed roles when needed in a hurry..

From Britain at war Magazine:

Whilst taking part in Operation Goodwood east of Cagny, Lt John Gorman who was a Troop Commander in the 2nd Armoured Battalion was probing forward in his Sherman tank 'Ballyragget' when suddenly he found himself broadside to a German King Tiger , the massive German tank that no-one had yet seen. On seeing the tank he gave the order to fire his 75mm gun at it but it just bounced off the armour of the great German monster. On giving the order to fire again he was informed by the gunner that the gun was jammed and could not fire again. By now the German Tiger Tank was traversing his 88m gun onto the defenceless Sherman tank. On seeing this Lt Gorman ordered his driver L/Cpl James Brown to ram the Tiger Tank. Ballyragget struck the German tank amidships disabling the tank and causing it's crew to bail out. After seeing his own crew to saftey, Lt Gorman commandeered a Firefly, 'Ballymena', whose commander had been killed and continued to fire at the Tiger tank with his new-found 18 pounder gun until it's destruction was complete. For this action Lt John Gorman was awarded the Military Cross and his driver L/Cpl James Brown was awarded the Military Medal.

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cool urgh!

i seen a documentary about a allied tank driver talking about a german tank that was around the corner from himself.
He goes on to mention that he was stuck and surounded by germans tanks and had one way out,and there was one german tank blocking his way out just around the corner of the building.
The allied driver only had one chance and he took it,he blew the side of the building up were the german tank was and actually disasembled the german tank. The allied tank driver escaped.

 

In late 1942 as a result the fighting in Stalingrad Hitler demanded a vehicle capable of destroying fortified building by ramming straight through them. Of course his favourite tame engineer Dr F Porsche proposed the RaumTiger P.

This is a wooden model without the plough.
View attachment 5809

and at
RÄUMPANZER TIGER (P)

Note with regard to this sight the Photo of the T34/85 and RaumTiger P is a fake its being around since before the public had access to the net.

The Next attachment is Artichoke, which is a Mk2 Churchill of A Squadron 14th Canadian Tank Rgt (the Calgary Rgt.) during training for operation Rounder the attack on Dieppe. While smashing through buildings at Dieppe would have been highly desirable, it must be remembered that this training scenario is against a un re-enforced 1927-38 period standard British semi-detached house which comprises a double skin of brick and block.

View attachment 5808

As can be seen in the photo many potential hazzards are apartent, the timber on the tracks and more fundementally the dust, Churchills closed down suck air via vents in the underside of the turret bustle, it would be only moments until the crew would be choked by the dust.

Final photo a personal favourite, what can happen if you take tour tank into a built up structure without supporting troops to watch out for you.
This Firefly M4hybrid entered a Sugar factory in Italy whilst crossing an aparently rubble covered tarmac yard it fell into a shellhole filled with molasis (Black Treacle).
View attachment 5810

~Steve

 

A photo of a British A13 series Cruiser playing with some derilict buildings probably captioned as war damaged buildings, it has to be remember that Britian was in the middle of a major slum clearance programme when war started. Photo is Australian War Memorial-
View attachment 5817

I mentioned various spectaculars to impress dignitaries in the USA which have questionable consquences for the crew and the tank
The Flying M3 which must have took some skill to get airborne.
View attachment 5820
View attachment 5814
There was a trandition of new U.S. tanks to cut a telegraph pole for the "enjoyment" of the great and the good. Obvious the Ordnance though the most likely enemy was Edison, Bell and AT & T.
View attachment 5816
There are photos of M48 doing the same trick post war.
Finally the British get in on the act, after seeing leaping Soviet BT tanks in the 1930s they did it with a Cromwell.
View attachment 5819

I know of a report that a U.S. Army Sherman rammed a Panther in similar circumstances to what you discribe, pushing it sideways into a ditch and ending up stranded with its own tracks flailing helplessly.

yes they can be dangerous, one is the branches causing the lid to close on the head or hands, the lock out catches cannot be relied upon. I nearly lost an eye opening the filler cap on the front fuel tank on a Centurion ARV which we were preparing for disposal on a range. -It doesn't happen when taking the car for petrol does it.

~Steve

 

Razin, do you know what happened to the crew of that Firefly? I can think of worse things to get stuck in, mind.

 

Apart for standard bulldozers I don't think any prpoosal was made to use tanks a rams. The Sherman lacked sufficient traction and the Churchill although very capable of gradiant,trench and step lacked sufficient engine power, only about 325-350bhp for a 38ton tank. After Dieppe there was also unsubstanciated fear that Churchill and tank track in general were incompatable with stones and bricks.

After Dieppe the standard proposals for obstacle and strongpoint reduction finally resolved into the use of the Churchill AVRE with Petard mortar although many explosive placement devices were developed (Carrot Onion etc).

~steve

 

The crew got out, I think I would have had a different attitude to the story if it had been fatal. The Tank was 10th Hussars command by a Sgt Beale on April 16th 1945 near Argenta Italy. IWM photo, it is mentioned in numerous books -I suppose army humour comes into it.

An interesting variant on the question "what happened to you in the war" -"My tank was destroyed by Syrup"

~Steve

 

Considering it was April 1945 it was probably written off, but I reckon fill it with water and leave it in the Italian sun of a day and drain then hose down it might be salvageable -it looked fairly new.

It's banging you head on all the bits of metal in the tank that would worry me and I am certain that major suspension and drive train damage would result, all to impress the brass

~Steve

 

Ecky thump...I nominate razin as the forum tankie.

 

Adam needs to post a new tank ident in quiz me

Steve

 

I actually have read a German report on how to level a house with a tank on tanknet, unfortunately that was a good many years ago and I won't be able to reproduce it. If memory serves, it is as you have all suspected--it is done when there is a need to do so with no alternative. It was suggested in that report that the turret should be rotated to six o'clock away from the ramming target tso that the impact would not damage optics or gun barrel.

 

The problem with ramming buildings is even allowing for reversing the turret it doesn't stop the Ist floor walls, floor and roof collasping onto the tank, the plan of Raum Tiger was a naive project, the Germans eventually came up with an armoured response to fortified building in Russia with the PzKfw3 auf 15cm Sig 33, the Pz 4 Brummerbar and finally the Sturmtiger which in particular mirrored the Churchill AVRE Petard. A couple of photos of how building cause problems in fighting even whilst not attempting a ram.
View attachment 5840
A Tiger at Villers in France got hung up on a building in the main street note the rubble on the motor grilles. The tank was destroyed after it was abandoned.
View attachment 5841
Cromwell at Villers tried to turn around in the street,ripped up a paving slab and was disabled by it, crew legged it, leaving the tank intact, it was subsequently destroyed by the Germans when they withdrew. ther is also a photo of a tiger (posted by M Kenny) which disabled itself by reversing into a rubble pile during fighting in the Rhine operation (See M26 Vs Panther thread)

~Steve