Here I was, discussing World War 2 weapons with this history teacher at my school (not mine), and we came around to the knee mortar. He said that the knee mortar was basically the equivalent of the rifle grenade in the Allied and German arsenals. Well, I believe that the knee mortar came first, but I could be (usually am) wrong. Basically my question is, the role, performance, design, and use of the knee mortar, compared to that of the various rifle grenades. After all, the M79 grenade launcher is kind of strangely reminiscent of the knee mortar. It most likely had a lot of problems, seeing as how it wasn't too hot even with Japanese troops.
I'm pretty sure rifle grenades were first. I think they date back to WWI at least. The "knee" mortar was really more the equivalent of the 50mm and 60mm mortars of other countries. Now that I've made a fool of myself those who know better will join in.
The first "knee Mortar" was the British 2" inch of 1918. This was became obsolete in 1920. The Japanese Type 10 (1921) knee mortar was their first model followed by the type 89 in 1929. both used in WW2. The first experimenal grenade launchers were used by the Japanese in the Russo-Japanese war and were rod grenades. Perhaps to negate the small stature of Japanese soldiers. Later in WW1 the Japanese had developed a Cup Grenade launcher not dis-similar to the Mauser P40. The French developed the VB grenade launcher in 1915 which was the only service pass through grenade launcher to enter regular service. Pass through - it used standard rounds the bullet passing through the grenade body. More or less similtaneously the british French French and Germans developed the long rod grenade similar but not related to the Japanese type (the pattent is supposed to be U.S. but I canot find a ref.) The problem with this type of weapon is it wrecks the barrel, after WW1 the cup grenade launcher was adopted by various nations. M8 fitted to US M1 carbine and M9 fitted M1903 and M1. No68 rifle grenade fitted to British No1 Mk3 and German P40 were used during WW2. So rifles grenades first followed by the first 50mm mortars in 1918 (french decided a small gun the 37 mle1916 was their preference). FYI the term knee mortar is incorrect it was never placed on the thigh -unless you wanted to go home early and face a SIW charge. Steve
I would assume that the early use of a trial version of the rod type grenade in 1904-5 meant they were aware of the damage it did to the rifle barrel, I think the Japanese were into marksmanship. But Japanese mortars from the handy little grenade discharger type 10 were amongst their better weapons although as usual they had too many calbires. The thing which is odd is that the british invented the 2inch mortar in WW1 declared it obsolete in 1920 and did not readopt it until 1938 and it was a variant of the Spanish Ecia 50mm mortar that was accepted into service. They lasted longer in Britsh service they were still used as training range weapons as late as 2000.
thats where you,re right wolfy they were armed with bolt action rifles and a portable 50mm mortar which has just been called the knee mortar I like to call it a pocket howitzer even though that is not it,s real name
Your teacher friend is correct. The correct designation of the "knee mortar" is Type 89 Grenade discharger. It was an improved WW 1 era Type 10 that performed the same function. Both types were used during WW 2. The Type 89 fired either the Type 91 or 89 grenade. The later could be fired to about 700 yards. Range was adjusted by screwing in or out the base (the leg is threaded) and adjusting the elevation the discharger was held at.
Yes, the Rifle grenade was invented my Martin Hale in 1907, just in time for WWI. The knee mortar came later, like the others say.
they say the grenade cup for the karabiner 98 k had to be used with a special cartridge in order to fire what I think is a 30mm grenade tell me if I,m wrong
Hale was the first successful manufacturer of a rifle grenade. M. Pederson a Belgian engineer patented one in 1905, three years before Hale but his lacked backing and a market.
The earliest grenade thrower on a personnal weapon was the Tinkers Mortar of about 1680 and an example is held in the School of Infantry at Warminster U.K. The next manifestation was during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05 when when a Japanese Colonel Amazawa got as far as issuing a rod type grenade. This was independant of the Pederson type of approx. the same date. By 1914 most forms of rifle grenade had been developed, rod types, cup and blank propellant and thorugh firing with standard rounds. The next development was mortars the Stokes mortar developed by the British was a 2inch smooth bore in which initally the mortar bomb a large sperical spigot mortar shell was fired by placing the tail into the tube. By 1918 a handy 2inch bomb was developed to fire from the same mortar tube being develped as a smaller version of the 3inch type. However by 1919 it was discontinued and out of service nearly everywhere -a few remained in the Dominions amongst militia who took them home in 1918. View attachment 6096 In 1921 the Japanese independantly developed a 2inch smooth bore mortar grenade discharger the Type 10(this numeral does not refer to the date of manufacture), the Type 89 was developed in 1928 and was rifled. Most probably tis type was the development model for most 50mm mortar designs. The Japanese contiued to develop rifle Grenades until 1945, including a remarkably weird pair of dedicated mortar rifles that bore no resemblence to anything before or since. A spigot mortar rifle grenade launcher, A number of cup mortars firing the grenades developed for the type 10 and type 89, German Schmeiser A/T grenade mortars, initially supplied as a gift from AH to Hiro-Hito and captured Chinese Type 1928. Steve
While looking through stuff on Japanese mortars I found two weapons that are fairly obscure. It has been asked why the Japanese did not copy the Panzerfaust or the Panzershrek or even the Bazooka, Well they copied the Bazooka in the Type 4 but only 3500 were made and all were retained for homeland defence. It used an existing 70mm (nominal) rocket -the bore was 74mm. the weapon was demountable into two pieces and had the bipod of a type 98 LMG on the forepiece. View attachment 6101 &0mmType 4 R/L View attachment 6102 The 45mm type 5 recoiless rifle remained experimental but seems to be more indignous. ~Steve
My understanding is that staff slings work pretty well as grenade throwers. They predate that by quite a bit but I'm not sure when they were first used to throw grenades. I have heard they were used for it during the Spanish Civil war.
Like Rumsfeld said in 2003, "you go to war with the army that you have." Japanese small arms were fairly crappy throughout the entire war. Probably the japanese commanders believed that the dedication of their men (110%) would surely overcome this. The Japanese went into the war with extreme arrogance since they had easily subdued the Chinese and so, no one in Japan gave serious thought to revamping the small arms. Remember the Japanese had been isolationist, by choice, for centuries and when they emerged in 1941 with a first class navy, everyone in the east was impressed and thought this was a sure war-winner. They were wrong.
Have you ever played a MMOG? It is much the same. The first time you have your a$$ handed to you by someone who understands the scope and scale of the game better than you is much the same as the Japanese situation versus the US in WW 2. But, unlike MMOGs, Japan had no way to recover from their lack of capacity in resources and manufacturing ability to win once they were at war with the US.
