Yes or No Germans take Gibralter

Could the germans have taken gibralter if they wished?

This is a carry over from another thread,i maintain that they could have done so quite easily but the person i was discussing this with maintains the germans were incapable..

your opinions?

 

If Spain had joined the Axis, the Germans could have attacked by land. Whether thay'd have succeeded, I don't know.

I doubt they'd have had any possibility of success attacking by air or sea.

 

If Spain joins the Axis Gibraltar is a hopeless situation. With German bombers a few miles away force H will have to redeploy, most likely by creating an advanced base in the Azzorres. With U-Boats and E-Boats operating by night and planes by day resupply of Gibraltar is an impossible task and it will eventually go the way of Singapore and Sebastopol, the logistics for Gibraltar are too much in the Axis favour with the Spannish rail system allowing for easy reinforcements. The Germans are not hard pressed to take it, they may need the Luftwaffe elsewhere but can well afford a couple of infantry divisions to bottle it up and they may get a very favourable attrition rate against the Royal Navy if it attempts to resupply it, so they can afford to wait and bring in a lot of heavy arty to do the job with limited losses, in 1940/41 there is no way for the allies to gain even temporary air superiority that far away from good bases, look at what happened at Crete.
So the Allies loose control of the Western Mediterranean and gain a very useful base to control the much more important Central Atlantic, not such a bad deal.

BTW this looks a bit like a what if.

 

Well i dont know how strong the british defences were but i still think the germans could have taken it without involving spain.

Operation felix(the plan the germans drew up)involved the germans travelling through spain with 2 x corp.2 x corp presumably is enough to get the job done..

Gibralter is very isolated so once the air defence is knocked out its gone for good..also there was nothing to stop the german uboats from blockading the straights.

Add to this long range artillery and air support from morrocco and i dont see how the defence of gibralter was viable,,an isolated outpost against the combined forces of germany(who conquered poland in 6 weeks and france in a similar amout of time)and italy and vichy france

 

How do you "not involve Spain" and move that much force through Spanish territory? That's not to mention the difficulties in getting them there. Certainly it won't be much of a surprise to the British.

By the way if you reduce the size of the first picture it won't screw up the formatting of the board for some of us.

 

I wasnt aware that the pic was messing things up.

What was the strength of the defence at gibralter,i know there would have been a lot of navy personel but chances are not enough small arms to supply them all,

Were spanish nuetrals allowed into gibralter?

 

I didn't think you would do it intentionally. I've done the same thing on some boards with an overly long url. Just wanted to bring it to your attention.

There's been some pretty detailed discussion on this on some other boards. I think the axis history board for one. I know I've seen some details of Gibralter's defences at various points in time. I'll post them if I can find them again. As for Spanish access to Gibralter I think there was some but am not sure. I suspect if nothing else food was brought in from Spain but I could easily be wrong.

 

No doubt i'll find out eventually,,i was only entertaining the idea of spanish tourists on "camping trips" anyway.

I do know a lot of the nonessential civilians were shipped out.

 

Not sure the border was completely sealed, it made a lot more sense for the brits to buy food and non military supplies from Spain than shipping them in.
The Italians had rented a house near the border (Villa Carmela) from where they organized surveillance, unknown to the Spannish authorities, there was also the Olterra wreck where assault swimmers (uomini gamma) prepared for the raids against the base.

 

I actually saw a film about italian frogmen riding chariots from the Olterra,it was a long time ago so i forget the details,very cool though.

 

There's a fair amount of discussion about Gibralter in this thread:
Axis History Forum • View topic - The Italian Navy and Operation Sealion 1940
As well as here:
Axis History Forum • View topic - Why didn't Hitler invade Spain?
and
Axis History Forum • View topic - Had Spain gone Axis...
and if you are interested in 43 here
Axis History Forum • View topic - Operation Herkules II

 

Yes, the Germans could have taken Gibralter but not after Barbarossa began. He did not have the resources to do both once German troops rolled east.

Taking Gibralter meant one thing, he would have to either convince Franco to allow passage for German troops or else invade Spain and force the issue. It would have taken a German force just as large as the invasion of France if not even larger and would have been enormously costly in lives, but it could have been done. German forces would have invaded Spain from the east (France) and probably from the South as well (the mediterranean) and the battle might have been the longest the Germans had fought up to that time - but with command of the air, and solid land access to Spain, (neither of which the British had in the area) until June 1941 taking Gibralter was probably within the Germans capabilities.

There's no doubt that Hitler must have had very important reasons why he did not even attempt to take Gibralter, since capturing it might have been a war winner for him. With the Germans in control of all entrance to the mediterranean from the Atlantic the advantages would have been enormous.

Franco wanted very much to stay out of the war, without allying with either side - if for no other reason than he already had plenty of problems at home. (Remember the Spanish civil war was still being fought, the communists had not given up, just taken to the hills, and would continue fighting Franco long after WW2 was over).

Also it was obviously a lose-lose situation for Franco, whoever he allied with. If he joined the Axis: the British, and later the Americans might well invade Spain and would at least engage in strategic bombing of Spanish territory . But if he joined the allies, Hitler would almost certainly invade Spain from French territory.

There was no way Franco could allow the Germans onto Spanish soil in order to attack Gibralter, since Franco knew the allies would certainly call this an act of provocation and declare war on Spain.

Hitler did not want to drive Franco into the arms of the allies and also respected Spanish fighting ability but tried very hard, at their one and only meeting, to convince Franco to join the war on the Axis side. Franco adroitly stood his ground and used every excuse to explain why he could not. Hitler later described the meeting as "worse than having teeth pulled" and the two never met in person again.

By way of placating Hitler, Franco Formed the Spanish "Blue Light" division, composed of anti-communist volunteers, and sent that to Russia to assist Hitler (where they fought courageously and won many iron crosses). But Franco drew the line at allowing Hitler to send German troops into Spain - and spent the war walking a tightrope by appeasing both sides.

 

Marc780;;if it was going to be done it should definately have been done before barbarossa.

Personally i think Hitler could have taken gibralter without using spain,the only threat to the conquest of gibralter was the ships stationed there.

As for invading spain i think that would have been much harder than invading england(once you take getting across the channel).
I'm not up to date with routes through and out of the pyranees but i dont suppose its great.
Plus spain is much more mountainous than england,top that off with a population that was much more used to war.

As far as i know canaris was the one credited with persuading hitler not to take gibralter.

 

I would say Gibralter would have easily fallen had Spain joined the Axis. That said, the down side for the Axis is now they have nearly another 1000 miles of coastline to defend, along with numerous other Spanish possessions both in Europe and elsewhere. What Spain had overseas in the way of possessions would have evaporated from their grasp. The loss of resources coming to Spain from overseas likewise would have hurt not just the Spanish but the Axis in general as Spain remained a conduit for critical resources from neutral and Allied sources.

On top of this, the Spanish military would have not made a sizable contribution to the Axis having just suffered through a debilitating civil war. Thus, the negatives in getting Spain into the war on the Axis side far outweigh any positives the Germans gain from it.

 

Well spain had every right to stay nuetral,as for having an extra 1000 miles of coastline to defend i dont think the germans would have been too pushed.
What threat could an invasion of spain be to the germans?its impoosible to imagine an allied thrust over the pyrannies.

 

Not to mention the fact that the Spanish would lose their absolutely vital wheat and other grain and food shipments from the US. Franco was wise in not getting involved with Hitler in WWII.

 

Well it really opens up the Med for the allies. Since closing the Med was one of the rationals for taking Gibralter I'd say this is not good at least for the Axis. Spain could also be a jump off point for invasion of France, Italy, or North Africa. Then there are the Atlantic islands controled by Spain and Portugal that become available to the allies. And while an assault across the Pyrannies would not be easy it's not something the Germans can completely ignore either.

 

LWD,quite true,it was spanish complance or nothing for hitler.