Stalag Luft 3 - Extraordinary photograph

Imageshack - sl3erase

This 'photo was taken at Stalag Luft 3 after March 1943.

What is extraordinary is that this is only part of a photograph and that the centre person has been crudely deleted firstly by a sharp implement then inked over.

Has anybody got the complete 'photo and any information?

Many thanks.
8002reverse[AT]gmail.com

 

The guy 2nd left (pixelated) was a relative, RAF and I have a number of other 'photos of him wearing the same overalls inside the North Compound. This 'photo however does not look as it was taken inside the N compound. I've visited the camp this year and the previous 4 years. I have 20 or so bricks taken from the hut support (or adjacent support) down through which Harry was started. These were taken away from where the new memorial is and dumped in a nearby hole.

 

Try contacting Gordon (aka) The Historian here and ask him about it. He's great with these things.

 

Had a quick look for maps and found this one and had a guestimate that the photo might have been taken where the red circle is, with the yellow lines being suggested field of vision facing roughly WNW. The three other sides are all heavily wooded and this 1940 map shows a path which curves slowly to the south. Harry is in orange.



Then I've lined up a 1944 aerial photo over that map, and marked the same area.



The only detail which seems to remain from the '40 map and the extension, or creation of VIII C is the square which was very nearly the only detail in the field of vision suggested, the Eastern side of which I suggest is the straight vegetated area in the background of the original photo;



One way to work out if I'm on the right track is to discover whether this end of VIIIC slopes upwards gently westward?

Any Help?

Did have a butchers at Google maps to give you that same area as it is more recently, however they didn't have a resolution equal to the aerial shot from '44. Also couldn't find a proper map which might give a truly geographic layout of the area so no idea if it does indeed slope there.

As for the deleted person, perhaps a German guard or a chap found later to have been an informer?

cheers,

 

Thanks WotNoChad? for your impressive detective work. I think you are spot on and you have positioned the the photographer correctly. 51°35'52.24"N 015°18'03.22"E

Here's another 'photo with 2 or 3 of the same people as in the first along with an American.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8990/sl3erase2l.jpg

The person, again pixelated was a document forger in Hut 120 and the manner in which the original 'photo (Imageshack - sl3erase) was crudely dealt with would be out of character. The half 'photo that had been cut has been centrally positioned in a album which would indicate whoever was in the original 'photo to the left of the cut had been removed before the 'photo was glued into position.

Why a defaced 'photo would have been inserted in the album or who had access to the album are a mystery.

I'm tempted to see if the 'photos can be removed without damage to see if anything is written on the back.

EDIT:- Regarding the slope of the terrain mentioned earlier, Google maps suggests that between the 2 rivers the terrain slopes upwards to the WNW of the photographer's POV - http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...0933,15.300264&spn=0.020179,0.056047&t=p&z=15

 

You're most welcome. So having been there could you confirm there's a slope in that part?

Yes it would be out of charactor if it were done by your relative, so suggest someone else did it. It's a shame they removed the emulsion, had they just inked over there'd be things you could try to reveal what was covered.

I remember when my elders of that generation used to share photographs, they'd quite happily cut them up and share the pieces out, even really old and irreplacable ones, almost as if they didn't know, or thought it was too much of a palaver, a new print could be made from it.

Perhaps someone gave it to your relative but had already deleted whoever they didn't want to be reminded of, but also wanted to keep that part of the image?

Even just from the scan you can see what appears to be marks, perhaps on the rear perhaps indentations, which look like "III" (Two to the right upper part of the image one over the trees in the background) , as well as a couple of "S"'s or "5"s.

There's an additional fascination to the pictures for me, namely how they seem to be wandering about outside the camp and they appear to have a camera with them - I suppose it might be the camera of a goon but even then it does all look like a pleasant stroll through the countryside.

 

No, because I've only started examining the 'photos in detail since my last trip to Zagan in June. Besides, I wasn't looking outside the North Compound as I thought once a prisoner arrived, it was the North Compound for the duration.

I hired an aircraft and took some poor aerial 'photos of Harry's memorial. There was an 800' cloud base and poor visibility.

 

I am a new member and I was at Stalag Luft III two weeks ago and I was looking for pictures of the North Compound during WWII. Please e-mail at a.ragonesi@sbcglobal.net if any one has pictures they would like to sell. Best regards Al

 

Not taken during WW2 but in 2005 from 500'. http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w328/8002reverse/Harry-Air-2005.jpg

 

The American in the middle is (now) Lieutenant General Albert Clark who recently turned 96 years old.

 

[FONT=&quot]This is the response I received from a former LuftIII POW.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]From:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Pappy Elliott
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 1:07 PM
To: Leslie
Subject: Re: SLIII Picture Question[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Hi Leslie: The four officers in the photograph are all RAF because there does not appear any identification on their shoulders as would be the case if they were colonials. I arrived at East Compound Stalag Luft 3 about April 1943 when construction had been completed - as was also the case for the North compound and there was no outside ventures to my knowledge at any time thereafter.. My guess would be that these officers were permanent RAF captured early in the war. They appear older than the average - they have their caps which was the custom to take with them when they flew operations then and they don't appear to have any decorations as one would expect. Moreover at Dulag Luft - the initial passing through camp - when I was there in July 1941 - occasionally officers would be allowed out for a walk with a German guard. It wouldn't be unusual for another guard to accompany them and take the photograph - I have three or four taken by the Germans inside the camps. I suspect that one of the photographed officers may have had a change of heart about being friendly with the enemy and obliterated the photograph of a guard.. Pappy[/FONT][FONT=&quot]---- Original Message ----- [/FONT]

 

Regarding the picture described as being taken at Stalag Luft III. I've done considerable research on SL III over the past two plus years and shared this picture with a fellow researcher who has many POW contacts. I hope this adds to the discussion. The following are their unedited inputs:

The four officers in the photograph are all RAF because there does not appear any identification on their shoulders as would be the caseif they were colonials. I arrived at East Compound Stalag Luft 3 about April 1943 when construction had been completed - as was also the case for the North compound and there was no outside ventures to my knowledge at any time thereafter.. My guess would be that these officers were permanent RAF capturedearly in the war. They appear older than the average- they have their caps which was the custom to take with them when they flew operations thenand they don't appear to have any decorations as one would expect. Moreover at Dulag Luft - the initial passing through camp - when I was there in July 1941 - occasionally officers would be allowedout for a walk with a German guard. It wouldn't be unusual for another guard to accompany them and take the photograph - I have three or four taken by the Germans inside the camps. I suspect that one of the photographed officers may have had a change of heart about being friendly with the enemy and obliterated the photograph ofa guard..

(This one is from an RAF POW at SLIII)

Below are additional responses about the picture. Some are from Germans, some from RAF, some Americans. I doubt very much if this picture was taken at SLIII. I plan to ask more about it with others. A.F. Academy is looking to see if they have this picture in their collection.

Strange indeed. Definitely RAF airmen. My guess would be that this picture was taken in England and was in the pocket of one of them arriving at Stalag III. It seems funny that those guys were strolling about in their dress uniform with a camera at the ready in a POW camp. It is possible that the removed person's identity needed to be protected (still flying carpet bagger missions etc)

The background does not seem to be Stalag Luft 3.

Are you sure it is in Stalag III? I think Stalag III was all pine forest but the trees in this photo don’t look like pines and there are hedges and other types of vegetation

My first impression is that the photo
may have been taken on a "parole walk". early in the war, the pw's
gave their word that they would not try to escape and they were
allowed to take an exercise walk outside the wire. its possible that
the photo may have come from dulag luft or another camp. the scratch
out may have been done by the german censors, if it was being mailed
back home. these are only conjectures.


It certainly is a strange photo, However, the background scenery looks too nice for it to have been taken inside SLIII. Also, some of those present do not appear to be officers, and NCOs were not imprisoned there. If they are not NCOs then the clothes they are wearing do not look like anything they would have been wearing when they were shot down - more like normal clobber. Can you let me know the name of the person who sent you the photo? They may be able to supply more information.It just occurred to me that the photo may have belonged to the officer in the group shot, and taken in England and showing his crew before they were shot down and captured, . It may then have been obtained by one of the guards at SLIII after it was altered to remove the identification of two of the men. The photo definitely looks to be a crew photo as most of the bombers were piloted by an officer who was accompanied by six sergeant NCOs working the three guns, along with the navigator, wireless operator and bomb aimer.

I have a hard time with this picture. I can't see anything in it that looks like it is of POWs.

1. these men look fresh, well groomed, ties tied...hmmm.

2. tree in the foreground - with mature leaves - doesn't look like any March tree to me.

3. Trees in the background....look like palm trees and other green leafy trees to me and to my recollection from everything I read, SLIII was carved out of pine woods.

I think the true location of this picture has been lost over time. Of course, who am I to say, but this doesn't make sense to me.

One of my British ground-pounder buddies sent me a website today that might prove a good link with various previous Brit military types. http://www.forcesreunited.org.uk. Maybe someone on this site would have a clue about the picture.

we have no way of knowing that this picture has anything to do with SLIII. Assuming none of the guys are German (and my knowledge of uniforms isn't good enough to be sure), this could have been taken in England or possibly even in a photographer's studio, though I think the ground they are standing on looks to groundy to make that likely. The path does have the light color that would be expected with sandy soil.

Don't know the picture but---it's not taken inside the wire of Stalag
Luft III. (From a SLIII POW)

 

Wow! What a find. Is there any way I could send a copy to Lieutenant General Albert Clark? Thanks - 8002reverse[AT]gmail.com

 

Thanks very much HistoryBuff101 for your reply.

The poster here:-

http://www.ww2f.com/information-req...ft-3-extraordinary-photograph.html#post409853

... has definitely pinned down the location of the photographer.

The RAF Officer (pixellated) was shot down mid March 1943 and after processing, went straight to SL3 and was a forger in Hut 120.

Photo' was definitely taken very near SL3 at 51°35'52.24"N 015°18'03.22"E

Relative's album.

 

Following this thread with interest.

 

Was a contact ever made with Lieutenant General Albert Clark who is identified on one of the photographs? It would be interesting to hear his account.

 

Better late than never:

1) I don't believe that the first photo was taken at Luft 3. The terrain and the vegetation do not look anything like what I saw there in 2005. Also, the uniforms are too "nice" (i.e clean and in perfrect condition) for Kriegies. They wore whatever tehy could get their hands on, and after 2-4 years "in the Bag", their original uniforms would have been in tatters. They didn't bail out (or crash-land) with extra clothes on board.

2) The British officer (in profile, front left) in the photo showing Bub Clark looks very much to me like Wings Day. How in the world they would have been messing around in a rowboat and joking around at Luft 3, I have no idea. There is indeed a river close by (the Bobr), but I wonder if this might have been taken sometime post-war?

3) I called General Clark a few years ago, but he was not very talkative.

Marc