Hi, My name is Christopher. I am 27 years old, married and looking to start a family of my own. I learned about World War Two (although not in-depth) in school; saw the news stories about this subject or that subject, but I never paid attention to what it all actually meant, and how it affected the world as we know it today. And the people ... I never listened to any of the personal stories, or realized this happened to average ordinary people asked to do extraordinary things. My grandfather passed away a year and a half ago. He fought in the war. He never talked about it, and I never asked because I knew he didn't like to talk about it. To a degree I regret that now, but it doesn't (and didn't) seem right to ask an old man to tell me about the things that still caused him to have nightmares. I do know that on one if his first nights of combat experience, he had to kill a German who was attempting to sneek into their camp. By doing so, he saved the life of several of his company. After he passed away, I did some research on the internet and tried to find out what I could about his military service. I think it was his awe-inspiring military funeral service that helped my interest in looking. There are two postcards that has his military ID number on it. I was able to find some rudimentary information based on that, but it isn't much to explain where he went and what he did. I let the whole subject slid for a while. I didn't look into it anymore and kind of moved on with life. About six months ago, my wife and I took a trip to a local aviation museum. One of the many airplanes housed in the museum is a Boeing B-17 flying fortress. I didn't look at the plane too much, or really think much about it. At the time we went, they were offering interior tours for an addional $4.00. Being the cheap-skate that I am, I didn't do it. It wasn't until I got home, and a couple of days later that, I started looking up this plane to see what I had missed by not doing the interior tour. What I found opened my eyes even more as to what the war was really about. I learned about the combat record of these plans, and the missions of the men that flew them. I have no personal connection to the B17's or their crews (other than the gas station in town with a B-17 perched as it's roof), but the stories I read just continued to facinate me. I had the excitement of learning in my research of B-17's, that one was coming to visit! My wife and I were at the airport early enough to watch the "Liberty Belle" take off and land two or three times as it gave it's passengers their rides. Boy, to hear those carburated engines run just made history come alive. It suddenly made all that I had been reading about real. They weren't just stories that you read in a book, young men actually listened to those engines fire up and run, while they climbed in wondering if they would come back alive or not. I wanted to know how this war got started. I wanted to know what the cause behind all of it was. Where to start? ... A copy of Mein Kamf from the local library seemed like the most logical choice. Early June of this year I had the excitement of visiting the Dwight D. Eisenhower museum in Abeline, Kansas, which continued to spurr my facination, and when we got home there was another visit at the airport, this time by a B-17, and a B-24 Liberator. I was pretty excited to climb through those planes, and experience the realizim it brought to what I had been reading. I finished Mein Kampf a few weeks ago. I must admit at times it was terribly boring, and very difficult to read. But I felt that I had to make the effort. I had to try and understand the madness that could create such chaos. I must admit, I don't understand the madness, but a lot of things do make sense now. At my parents last weekend I happened upon a book, that perhaps had been my grandfathers, we didn't know where it came from. It was called "Roll Me Over", by Raymond Gantter; about his infantry experience arriving in Normandy in 1944. So far this has been the most "real" portrail of what it was actually like. He was an excellent writer, and captured the reality of the war like I've never read before ... not to mention his path across Germany and his experiences were probably most similar to my grandfathers. So, I guess this is my introduction to the site. I'm probably not typical it that I'm not too intersted in the military tactics, or strategies. I am interested in the personal stories; the stories that make this the reality that it was. I'm intersted in reading stories, and talking to people, especially those my age, who feel the same. And of course, if as an added bonus I found more about what my grandfather did I would be thrilled. Let's see if I can get this straight ... He was in the 8th Division, 13th Infantry, Company "K". Does this make sense? I don't really know what all that means, except for the Division is pretty broad, and the Company is pretty specific. My grandfather I consider one of my heros. I want to pass his legacy, and all those of his generation onto my children, and their children. I don't want them to ever experience what he went though, but I want them to know and understand what these men gave up (and continue to give up, of course) for the freedom and life we have today. Most people I don't think have any clue of the horrors that these men went through; Not to mention the lives, dreams, family's, and futures all lost. Thank-you
Good to meetcha, Christopher. I know you must hate that you missed talking to your grandfather about the war. The 8th Infantry Division was a busy outfit. You are right about broad vs specific. An infantry division was around 16,000 men and was made of 3 infantry regiments, plus many other supporting units. Each regiment had 12 companies, organized into 3 battalions of 4 companies each. Your grandfather was in the 3rd Battalion. Did he make it all the way from Normandy to Germany unscathed? If so, with him being in an infantry company, that is nothing short of amazing. Infantrymen lead difficult lives. You passed up a $4 chance to crawl around in a B-17? ARE YOU CRAZY!? I guess you made up for that faux pas, though. Roll Me Over is a good book. If you want some more ideas for books to read, just ask. You'll get more replies than you can deal with, though. Welcome to the forum.
Welcome, Christopher. I like personal stories as well, though being the avid reader that I am, I find books about the occasional strategies interesting too. Glad to have you here!
Glad to have you aboard, Christopher. There is plenty of useful information around. Use the Search function, ask questions, and enjoy. Some of our members are WW2 vets. Their usernames are in blue. They have some amazing personal stories, so check the Member List for names in blue. SouthwestPacificVet, Sapper, and Old Hickory are three of them. Great intro, by the way.
Thank-you for the welcome. I wish I knew where my grandfather started from, and where he finished. His date of enlistment at http://aad.archives.gov shows 08/03/1943, 9 months after his 18th birthday. I have two postcards written to my grandmother, one dated August 28th, 1943, and the other dated August 30th, 1943. They appear to be written while enroute to Ft. Leonardwood, MO. Beyond that, I have no idea how long until he was sent overseas. I know that he particpated in the Battle of the Bulge, and that's about it. My uncle, (his son) has some sort of an "annual", or "yearbook", which I think might chronical his experiences, I'm not sure. I need to get my hands on it and read it. He did make it as an infantryman unscathed. To my knowledge, his only injury was to his hearing in one of his ears when a morter went off a little too close. This was a family secret that I didn't learn until after his death was kept from everyone but me. He led everyone to believe it came from childhood. It's a memory I hold very close to my heart. Yes, I do miss the opportunity to talk with him again. War aside, I just miss him period. He is the first person I've been close with that I've lost. I won't pass up the opportunity to tour a WWII plane again, let me tell you. I could go back to the museum, and pay the admission and pay to see the plane again, but maybe I'll wait, and someday take my children. It'll be the third I've seen. As much as I hate flying, someday I wouldn't mind taking a flight on one of those birds . I'd really like to see the one in Milwaukie, Oregon restored (that's the one a-top the gas station). The family that owns it is working on it, but it is a very slow, and very expensive project. I am pretty sure I am going to Hawaii with my wife's family next year. They want to go to Maui, but I've already explained to my wife that I will NOT go to Hawaii, without going to Pearl Harbor. I look forward to that. When I was a kid I got to see the U.S.S. Missouri on it's way to Hawaii when it stopped in Astoria, Oregon. I look forward to seeing it again, and touring the inside (it was closed up for the trip across the ocean when it was here). Thank-you all again for the welcome. ~Christopher
Christopher -- Welcome to this fine place and thanks for a great introductory post. Lots to read and contribute here so jump right into the discussion! Cheers!
Christopher: I recall replying to a post you submitted to another forum. I suggested you seek out the Yahoo discussion group devoted to the 8th Infantry Division in WWII. There are very few veteran members, but many children, and grandchildren of veterans, like us. My father served in Company M, 13th Infantry Regiment, 8th Division from March 1941 to September 1945. He was a reconnaissance sergeant. So he would have been in the same 3d battalion as your grandfather. Company M was a heavy weapons company, with two water-cooled .30 cal. machine gun platoons, and one, 81 mm mortar platoon. They supported the rifle companies (Cos I, K, &L). It is unclear when your grandfather entered the army. The 8th Infantry Division was reactivated in July 1940 at Ft, Jackson, SC. But it was in the spring of 1941 when its manpower started reaching full strength. Before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, raw recruits were assigned to a unit, and undertook their basic training with that unit. In fact, my father entered through Selective Service, and was slated to do a one year tour of duty, and revert back to the reserves. But Pearl Harbor changed all that. After Pearl Harbor, trainees were pooled together, trained, and assigned to a replacement depot. They were parceled out to specific units later, either just before that unit shipped out, or overseas as a replacement. The unit participated in the Carolina (Oct. & Nov. 1941) and Tennessee (Autumn 1942) maneuvers. After Pearl Harbor, the division guarded east coast barrier islands from North Carolina to Key West. In the winter of 1942/43, the unit underwent advanced infantry training at Ft. Leonard Wood, MO. From March to September 1943, the unit trained and lived in the harsh environment of the Desert Training Area at Camp Laguna, AZ, which culminated in a combined arms maneuver. Then it was back to Ft. Wood, briefly before another brief stop at Camp Forrest, TN, and on to Camp Kilmer, NJ. We can assume by your two letters dated August 1943, that perhaps you grandfather joined the 8th Division as it passed through Ft. Wood after its desert training, as all along the way more GIs filled the ranks. But this is only a guess. The 8th Division left New York Harbor on December 5, 1943, and arrived at Belfast, Northern Ireland ten days later. This was a huge convoy with destroyer escort. The 13th Infantry sailed on the converted French liner Athos II. This was a former German ship that the French government had seized for reparations from World War I. In the middle of the Atlantic the Athos II developed engine trouble and sat dead in the water for six long hours as the rest of the convoy sailed on. One destroyer was left to circle the stricken ship. This must have been a hairy six hours with the threat of a possible U-Boat attack. The engine was repaired and the 13th Infantry completed it voyage without mishap. In the winter and spring of 1943/44, the training intensified. The 13th Infantry was camped outside the town of Enniskillen. Generals Patton and Eisenhower visited the division, and Patton gave one of his infamous pre-invasion speeches to the men. Eisenhower viewed a demonstration and was most pleased. Ike remarked that the 8th Division was the best trained unit to enter the ETO. The division left Belfast on July 1, and landed on UTAH Beach on July 4, D+28. An interesting note: During a river crossing problem in Northern Ireland, a GI with a .30 cal. machine gun in his arms, jumped into a wooden boat. He busted right through the bottom of the boat, and the weight of his equipment held him under. Unfortunately, he drowned. As a result, every GI in the division who did not know how to swim, was ordered to take swimming lessons. I don't know how my father fared with this, because as far as everyone in the family knew, my father never learned how to swim. The 8th Division "baptism of fire" did not go smoothly. Squeezed between the 79th and 90th Divisions in the dense hedgerow and marshes of the VIII Corps front. On the second day of combat, the division XO (second in command) was seriously wounded and died the next day. The 28th and 121st Infantry Regiments were stalled and two regiment and one battalion commander were relieved. The 13th Infantry was in reserve, however, the 3d battalion, 13th Infantry cleared the town of La Haye du Puits on July 9/10. This would have been your grandfather's first taste of German snipers and booby-traps left behind by the fleeing Germans. There was a German sniper in the church bell tower that raised havoc, until he was finally eliminated. Two weeks of hedgerow fighting ensued. In 1994, I toured this region around La Haye du Puits and Vesley. In my opinion, the most congested and confusing pattern of hedgerows are found here than anywhere else in Normandy (an I criss-crossed all of Normandy). The commander of the 8th Division was also sacked, and Brig. Gen. Donald Stroh took over. Under his leadership, the division ironed itself out. The 8th Division was instrumental in the crossing of the Ay River during Operation COBRA. Patton came on the scene, and attached the 13th Infantry to the 4th Armored Division for the race to Avranches. For this action, the 13th Infantry (and 4th Armored Division) was awarded the French Croix de Guerre. On August 4, the 13th Infantry liberated Rennes, the capitol of Brittany. On August 25, the battle to capture the port of Brest began. The Brittany Campaign, is one of the least covered campaigns in the ETO, and also one of the deadliest. It was overshadowed by the Falaise-Gap, Mortain Counteroffensive, Operation ANVIL, the landings in southern France, the Liberation of Paris, and finally, Operation MARKET-GARDEN. The three-day battle for "Hill 88" was one of the bloodiest for the 13th Infantry. The 2d Battalion, 13th Infantry took the brunt of the battle, but then the 3d Battalion pushed through them and continued the attack. Company K pushed out too far on August 27, and was hit hard by German paratroopers on its flank. I have no doubt in my mind that your grandfather would have had some terrible memories about Hill 88. After a siege that lasted almost a month, Brest finally surrendered, but its port facilities were damaged beyond repair. Across the bay on the Crozon Peninsula, the 3d Battalion, 13th Infantry captured the German paratrooper general Hermann B. Ramcke, who was at this time fortress commander of Brest. Ramcke asked the division XO, Brig. Gen. Charles Canham for his credentials. Turning to the dirty bearded GIs of the 13th Infantry, he replied: "these are my credentials!" The motto became a 13th Infantry legend, that is still in use today. A tragic story occurred during the Brest campaign. A flight of P-47 fighter-planes were bombing ground targets in front of the 8th Division positions. For unknown reason, one P-47 returned for a second run. With no German AA in the immediate area, suddenly the plane burst into flames and crashed in a ball of flame. It is said the General Stroh watched the plane crash. It was not until almost a week later, that Stroh was told that the pilot of that doomed P-47 was his own son, Maj. Harry Stroh, a pilot with the XIX Tactical Air Command. Stroh attended his son's funeral at St. James, but he was never the same. He could not bare to think that his wife was grieving alone back in the states without him. Stroh went directly to Eisenhower, and requested to go home. Ike said that with his division engaged, he could not spare him, but promised Stroh he would allow him to go home as soon as he could. The division spent September and October in a defense position on the Siegfried Line in Luxemburg/Belgium. The 13th Infantry HQ was located at Ouren, Belgium. On November 19, the 8th Division relieved the battered 28th Infantry Division in the Hurtgen Forest. The 13th Infantry was again in reserve around the town of Vossenack, Germany. After a week of bitter fighting, the town of Hurtgen, and the Brandenburg Ridge beyond were captured. The 3d Battalion, 13th Infantry HQ was located at Brandenburg, with the front lines a mile further at Bergstein when the Battle of the Bulge began on December 16. A day before the hotly contested village of Hurtgen was finally captured, Stroh finally received orders to go home to be with his grieving wife. Many historians state that the Hurtgen forest battle was too much for Stroh, and he broke under the strain, but in fact, seeing his son crash in Brittany was the start of it. Stroh would return several months later to command the 106th Infantry Division. Now a generalization needs to be cleared up. Vets tend to talk about events in a broad stroke. Many 8th Division vets will say that they fought in the Battle of the Bulge. Yes, the 8th Division was active during this period, holding the line, patrolling, and carrying out deadly artillery duels with the enemy. But, the 8th Division was not located within the boundary lines that made up the "Bulge." Therefore, the 8th Division is not considered officially as a participant of the Battle of the Bulge, and if you read and thorough history of the battle, you will not find the 8th Division mentioned. Nevertheless, the 8th Division was battered from its Hurtgen Forest battle; the freezing rain, mud, and snow, along with the terrible shelling had taken a toll on every single GI in that division. On February 23, 1945, the 8th Division assault crossed the Roer River and took the town of Duren. Riding the tanks of the 3d Armored Division, the 13th Infantry entered Cologne on March 5. The first days of April saw the division slice through the Ruhr Pocket at Siegen. This mountain-top mining town was hotly contested. The 13th Infantry warded off no fewer than seventeen counterattacks in one day to retake Siegen. Again attached to the 3d Armored Division, the division sliced the Ruhr Pocket right up the middle (later called the "Rose" Pocket after the 3d Armored Commander, Maurice Rose, killed in action March 30, 1945). Now part of XVIII Airborne Corps, the 8th Division was attached to British Second Army, and crossed the Elbe River at Bleckede. The 82d Airborne Division crossed first, and because the paratroopers were short heavy weapons, the 3d Battalion, 13th Infantry were attached to the 82d. Advancing alongside the 82d, the horrors of the Wobbelin Concentration camp was discovered on May 2. Believed to be the last concentration camp built (February 1945), it was a transit camp whose starved emaciated victims continued to die at a rate of 100 per day. I have researched this camp, and the horrors are too numerous to describe here. I bet this place gave your grandfather, and my dad nightmares for decades after the war. The 8th Division had captured 316,187 POWs during its final drive through Germany. The 13th Infantry guarded POWs in three large enclosures at the former Luftwaffe airfield at Hagenow. The division met the Russians at Schwerin, and a rest camp was established on the beautiful lake there were GIs could fish, swim, or go boating. As if they had not experienced enough, the men of the 8th Division were told by their commander that after some additional training that winter, the 8th Division was slated to participate in the invasion of Japan. The division left Le Harve on July 2, 1945, two days short of a year when it first landed on UTAH Beach. It is credited with 266 days in combat, although I always thought this number was a bit low. The division landed at Hampton Roads, VA, and trained to Ft. Leonard Wood, MO. Your grandfather would have accumulated adequate points, as my dad had also. My dad got a 30-day furlough and returned to NJ. During his leave, the two A-bombs ended the Second World War. My dad was mustered out on September 2, and most of the men of the 8th Division were out by October and November 1945. Let me tell you this, Christopher. Your grandfather saw all the horrors one can see in combat in WWII. I have read the After Action Reports, and talked to many vets. Although the 8th Division is not one of the more flamboyant divisions such as the "Big Red One" or the two famous airborne divisions, it saw its share of bitter bloody combat! It accomplished all its missions, and never gave ground. I welled up in tears when after the first Gulf War in 1991, the 8th Infantry Division was deactivated. The 1st Battalion of the 13th Infantry stills trains soldiers at Ft. Jackson, SC. I have heard many 8th Division veteran's wives, reveal, only after their husbands have passed on, that their husbands still occasionally had terrible nightmares about their experiences in combat. These brave men remained silent and never sought sympathy nor accolades. I'm sorry this was so long. I tried to keep it concise. I hope it helps. Greg C.
hey chris my great gran dad was in the british recon in ww2 and according to my dad he didnt like talking about it either, i also learnt that he unfortunately had to serve in the first ww and second, poor soul. i cant even imagine what hell he went through. war doesnt have many positive outcomes especially phychological.
Greg, I cannot thank-you enough for the information you have provided here. I am a member of the Yahoo-Discussion group, and enjoy reading the e-mails they send out. A big piece you filled in for me was about the concentration camp "Wobbelin". I knew that he had seen one, I had heard about him talking about the bodies stacked up like cord-wood. I always wondered where it was, which one it was. I have never heard about "Hill 88", but thank-you for this information as well. I know that he experienced nightmares about all of it until the day he died. My only chance now is to make sure that my children understand the sacrific he made, and make sure that no one ever forgets. Thank-you Very Much ~Christopher
Christopher, you are quite welcome. It was my pleasure. Learning is a life-long endeaver, so let this not be the final communication. Feel free to bounce topics around anytime. Greg C.
I'm also new member from Atlanta USA finally I finished the registrations process it was so long. I'm Steph from Atlanta GA I hope that I can gain new friends here.
