German A-Bomb

i have not seen alot of material on this topic available. The Germans knew it was theoretically possible (German scientists were the first to split the atom in 1938)and the Nazis did have a nuclear program, but Hitler always gave it a very low priority and if some new weapon didnt go through Hitler first , it usually didnt get made. Other things grabbed his attention first, such as the V1 and V2 rockets, the heavy and super heavy tanks, and aircraft - perhaps the Austrian corporal's mind was unable to grasp the implications of nuclear fission.

Alot of people have heard about the famous British commando raid to destroy the German "heavy water" plant in Norway during the war. In fact they even made a dramatic war movie about it a long time ago. The process involving the heavy water was one way to eventually arrive at a nuclear device, but it was too cumbersome and time-consuming to be of much use in developing an actual bomb in a reasonable time frame. During the Manhatten project, Army commander Colonel Groves, and civilians Enrico Fermi and Robert Oppenheimer, chose a different way (graphite method described by other people that know more about it than me here) to develop the bomb that used no "heavy water" and of course, the US won the race.

The thing that spurred the Manhatten project on with such speed, was the Allied fear that the Germans might develop such a weapon FIRST. The allies realized that such a bomb would be so enormously powerful that it would instantly outclass every weapon everybody had. Some German physicists realized this too, but none of them were able to convince Hitler. Even worse for the Nazis, their anti-jewish policies had caused many of the best physicists to flee Germany, to the USA - where alot of them promptly found work on the Manhatten project.

In 1945 all the German nuclear development facilities were over-run by the allies. The Americans sent many experts to examine the German progress and to question the people involved in the project. It proved that allied fears were mostly unfounded, because the Germans had progressed so little that Germany was at best, 5 to 10 years from developing a nuke.

 

Your a absolutely correct !!!!
Well done

 

The german army was also fighting on over 2 fronts western europe trying to rapel the d day invasion and operation babarossa.(russia)
the germans where becoming desperatly short of materials and man power and there was no way for them to fund the project at that stage..

 

Does anyone know if the germans used or wanted use plutonium because i heard a story(dont know if its true or not) that a german u boat had tried to escape to argentina with plutonium and south african diamonds on board
your comments pls people

 

Long before they were fighting on two fronts, and even as they were just starting to loose on the eastern front in 1943, there hadn't been any real work on an atomic device. They had worked on a reactor, and that was to produce electrical power, and eventually the plutonium for a bomb. But Heisenberg never got his reactor to function.

Heisenberg could, with a straight face tell Hitler; "For the present I believe that the war will be over long before the first atom bomb is built." (Heisenberg, statement to Hitler in 1939).

Then as the head of German research (Heisenberg) could honestly report to Hitler later, in July of 1943 that; "though our work will not lead in a short time towards the production of practical useful engines or explosives, it gives on the other hand the certainty that in this field the enemy powers cannot have any surprise in store for us." He of course had no clue that the Fermi team had succeeded a full seven months before his claim, and had created the world’s first controlled nuclear reactor in Chicago.

The Nazis (through Hitler) invested almost the same amount of money into the V-2 as the allies put into the Manhattan Project, about $2 billion. Guess which one was the better buy in a cost/benefit analysis? That said, the original "funding" for the proto-atomic investigation was under $10,000 which was alotted by FDR and Congress for the S-1 committee. Ironically that funding was allocated on Dec. 6th, 1941. The scientists got the word the day before Pearl Harbor was attacked, and that put the MED on a "back-burner" in the US as well for a time.

 

thank you clint

 

You are welcome, here is a link to a great starting place to figure out the chronolgy of the atomics, and nuclear physics and the scientists.

Goto:

Atomic Bomb Chronology: 1930-1941

And the world-wide understanding of the field is more easily understood. It wasn't all Germans, or Italians, or Danes, or Americans, or French. Every nation had their own brilliant people.

Not all of them were working on either an explosive device, nor a reactor. Some on one, some on the other, some on neither, some on both.

 

Come on members help him out, Thanks !

 

Nothing wrong with it. Anybody can come in here and post anything but posting with a source adds content.

 

It has only been a half hour. With members from all over the world, it may take a little bit. The information isn't all that hard to find. Here is what I got on my first google attempt.
german u boat escaping to argentina with plutonium - Google Search=

 

Any help members !

 

There's a long cantacorous thread on it over on the axis history forum. The supporters of the theory are IMO rather short of evidence.

 

No plutonium was produced by the Nazi project, that takes a functioning reactor, something they failed to accomplish. There was about a 1/2 a ton of U-236 aboard however, but not the HEU (highly enriched uranium) isotope U-235.

The uranium oxide (U-236) aboard the U-234 was the least of the value of the cargo. Something that should be remembered is that among the more important civilian scientists aboard the "unterseeboot" U-234 was Dr. Heinz Schlicke, a radar, infrared, and counter-measures specialist who had been the director of the Naval Test Fields in Kiel. His task was going to be to aid the Japanese in developing and manufacturing electronic devices and instruments.

Then two "men from Messerschmitt," i.e August Bringewalde (Willi Messerschmitt's "right-hand man"), who was in charge of ME-262 production, and Franz Ruf, an industrial machinery specialist who designed machines and appliances to manufacture aircraft components were also aboard. Schlicke, had worked on sound and electrical absorption materials for submarines, and infrared detectors and homing devices. After 1946 he continued these efforts at the U.S. Office of Naval Research and later in the private sector.

Bringewald and Ruf also returned from Germany to America post war. I think that Ruf assisted in assembling one of the ME-262s, which flew at Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio in May 1945 (Watson's group), and became significant to the American effort to develop jet-powered aircraft. Bringewald eventually became the project manager for the American F-105 Thunderchief. Likewise, the cargo containing a disassembled HS-293 glider bomb were likely indispensable to the American effort to develop our own air-dropped guided bombs. But the uranium oxide was of little note, or use, other than being put in the "pipeline" of our own fission production.

The fate of the U-234 submarine itself was less glorious. After dismantling its interior, and removal of all weapons, the hull was taken to a location forty miles east of Provincetown, Massachusetts where, on November 19th, 1947 she was struck by two torpedoes from the USS Greenfish (SS-351), and sank to the ocean floor six miles below. The story of the fate of the U-238 uranium oxide has never been totally clarified. One holds that it was used in American atomic research at Oak Ridge (most likely), while another contends that it was sent to a warehouse in Brooklyn, or at Staten Island, or at a storage facility in Kansas (one has visions of the "Ark of the Covenant" being stored at the climax of Spielberg's Raiders of the Lost Ark).

I personally believe that that little slightly over half ton of uranium oxide was just put in the "pipeline" and used in the Manhattan project. It was certainly of little import even compared to the other Nazi uranium which the ALSOS mission had discovered in Stuttgart (1100 tons) before the U-234 even surrendered. It too was shipped to Oak Ridge for inclusion with the millions of pounds of Canadian and Belgian Congo uranium already being processed. The uranium oxide existed on the U-boat, but was only of any use to the MED, the Japanese had no way to do anything with the stuff as per an "atomic device" (see the Riken institute destruction).

But when observing that even the primary records themselves differ as to when the containers were unloaded, where they were sent, and even whether the containers held uranium oxide ore as per their manifest, or a truly fissile material (highly unlikely owing to the Nazis lack of diffusion or enrichment facilities), or simply a radium compound or cadmium alloy which would have required such heavily lead lined containers.

With these contradictory, and sometimes highly suspect claims (one even claimed that the containers were lined with GOLD [yeah riiiight] instead of LEAD!), the fate of the "radioactive" material remains generally uncertain, although transfer to Oak Ridge seems likely, but also likely to have been too late to have been processed into components for the atomic weapons used against Japan in August 1945.

It would make a sort of "poetic" justice, but no matter how romantically attractive, the reality of the ability to "enrich" uranium oxide, and the time it took probably makes that possibility extremely unlikely. The fissionable U-235 only occurs at an unbelievably low ratio in U-238, and the Nazis under Heisenberg did NOT have the gaseous diffusion plants necessary for massive production of U-235. They never even got a sustained, controlled reactor running in all the years of WW2, which would be necessary to have to produce the completely "un-natural" plutonium, that is an unlikely cargo.

You might want to see if you can locate the book Germany's last mission to Japan: The failed voyage of U-234 by Joe Scalia (ISBN 1-55750-811-9)
It is 250 pages of text with a Foreword; Preface; Acknowledgments; Author's Note; photos; Notes; Bibliography; Index; Appendix.

U-234's Uranium Oxide.

Abundant myths pervade the stories of the last U-boats dispatched from Germany, and gullible readers can easily find mysterious tales about Hitler's secret escape by submarine, about cargoes of Nazi gold, and even about fantastic SS bases in Antarctica.

Joseph Scalia writes history, not fantasy, and he provides hard-headed facts about the final mission of U-234. Fortunately, the simple truth about U-234 makes a fascinating book.

The author begins with a review of German-Japanese cooperation and an outline of the previous Axis-to-Axis voyages by surface ships and submarines. As Allied control of the oceans grew tighter and tighter, options for transportation between Germany and Japan narrowed. Despite some planning for non-stop flights across Soviet territory to carry documents, important passengers, and critical but lightweight cargo, the Japanese vetoed such flights due to the desire not to antagonize the Soviets, with whom they wished to maintain a strict neutrality. Although, as Scalia points out, the sum of all the cargo carried by submarines between the two Axis partners was less than the equivalent of a single surface shipload, there was eventually no alternative for transport except by U-boat.

Scalia then details the preparations for the long voyage and describes the selection of the skipper and crew, the outfitting and loading of the boat, and the difficulties with getting safely to sea in the waning days of the war. Damaged during a collision with another U-boat, U-234 underwent hurried repairs in Norway. To conceal his plans, the boat's skipper transmitted his intention of departing from Norway on 16 April 1945, but slipped away a day earlier.

While at sea in the North Atlantic, U-234 learned of Germany's surrender and Doenitz's orders to abandon operations. Among the U-boat's passengers were two Japanese officers. Apprised of the necessity for surrendering the boat to the Allies with whom their nation remained at war, the Japanese officers committed suicide and were buried at sea. Meanwhile, despite being in the Canadian surrender zone, the U-boat skipper elected to make his way south and surrender to the Americans.

Unknown to the Germans, thanks to signals intelligence the Americans were thoroughly aware of the presence of U-234, its mission, its passengers, and its cargo. In what would qualify as a clear slap at its erstwhile allies, the US Navy jammed Canadian radio transmissions and in effect hijacked U-234 into the American zone so that the United States could take possession of the boat and its cargo.

Once in American hands, the pirated goods and German experts proved to be a valuable haul. Among the booty taken by the USN:


one ton of diplomatic and personal mail
technical drawings and blueprints for advanced combat weaponry
plans for construction of jet aircraft factories
anti-tank weapons
advanced bombsights and fire-control systems
airborne radar
an Me 262 jet fighter (dismantled)
additional jet engines (dismantled)
560 kilograms of uranium oxide (U-236)

And among the military and civilian experts taken into American custody:

Luftwaffe General Ulrich Kessler, on his way to become German air attaché in Tokyo

Luftwaffe Lieutenant Colonel Fritz von Sandrart and Lieutenant Erich Menzel, experts in air communications, airborne radar, and AA defenses.

Four Kriegsmarine officers, including a naval aviation expert, an AA expert, a naval construction engineer, and a naval judge (whose job would be to finally stamp out the last vestiges of the Richard Sorge spy ring)

August Brinewald and Franz Ruf, experts in the technology and construction of jet aircraft whose mission was to begin production of Me 262 jet fighters in Japan


Dr. Heinz Schlike, a specialist in radar and infrared technologies
Chapters are devoted to each of these men and their missions, placing their technical skills in the context of German advances in war-related technology and explaining what the Japanese expected to gain from these men and their knowledge. In almost every case, it was expected that the passengers and cargo of U-234 could be exploited to permit rapid deployment of new, state-of-the-art defenses against Allied invasion forces. While some of the anticipated results were far-fetched -- it seems unlikely that even a war-expedited program could have constructed an entire jet aircraft factory with Me 262 fighters rolling off the production line in time to stave off defeat -- allowing the technology and technicians to reach Japan could not have helped the Allied cause.

U-234's cargo and passengers proved of immense value to the United States, both in uncovering the state of Japanese technology and defenses for the planned invasion of the Home Islands and in the ensuing Cold War years. Several of the German experts made a swift transition from POW status to military and industrial employees in the US. Prototypes and blueprints hastened development and improvement of many critical American weapons systems, including jet aircraft and ballistic missiles.

Scalia devotes a lengthy appendix to the uranium oxide transported by U-234. There have been many theories and much speculation about that part of the cargo, and Scalia does a good job of demystifying the facts of the matter.

The author completely dispels a variety of myths, such as:

U-234 carried Hitler and/or other high-ranking Nazis who were attempting to escape from Germany. Wrong; although U-234 carried some officers and civilian as passengers, there were no political leaders aboard.

U-234's destination was Argentina or some secret German base. Wrong; whe U-boat was undertaking a long, non-stop voyage to Japanese waters.

U-234 carried a load of stolen gold and looted art treasures. Wrong; although loaded with prototypes, documents, raw materials, and technical experts, U-234 was not a sea-going Fort Knox or underwater museum.

The uranium oxide aboard U-234 was refined at Oak Ridge and became part of an atomic bomb dropped on Japan. Wrong; although the exact disposition of the uranium remains hazy, Scalia demonstrates the unlikelihood of the German ore going into an American bomb dropped on Japan.

A factual, highly readable account of an interesting mission. Scalia is a little careless about failing to annotate (and disprove) some of the material he quotes from interrogations of the captured Germans from U-234 (such as the purported incident in which a dozen Me 262's shot down an entire formation of thirty Allied bombers in thirty-five minutes, and the fanciful account of sixty Flying Fortresses destroyed by rammings by German suicide pilots) but otherwise this is the definitive and very enjoyable story of U-234's last voyage.

A good read all things considered, even if a little less "exciting" than a novel of fiction.

 

Alright, won't happen again...
Quite excusable in this case, if I might say so myself. If you check the time, it isn't the best time to be caught with an English essay due the next day, and still four paragraphs left to go!

 

The Germans apparently developed a tactical nuke using as little as 250 grams of Uranium 233 as early as 1943.

This was the Schumann/Trinks hollow charge weapon. It worked by exploding two hollow charge warheads opposed to one another firing slugs of molten Lithium into an evacuated cavitiy with a small amount of Lithium Deuteride, Beryllium and Uranium at it's centre.

It is a well known effect that with high enough temperatures and pressures that Lithium and Heavy Hydrogen will undergo nuclear fusion and give off further neutrons.

THat way the relatively small quantity of Uranium 233 at it's core was sufficient.

Interestingly in August 1943 the German agency Transoczean intercepted a report from London indicating the British knew of the device.

A MAGIC decrypt of a signal from the Japanaese embassy at Stockholm refers Tokyo to use of this weapon south of Kursk in 1943 and at the seige of German forces at Sevastapol.[1]

In recent years a former Austrian nuclear scientist disclosed that fifteen had been produced. [2]

In July 1944 Churchil warned Hitler through channels that Britain would retaliate with Anthrax. USA warned Germany through Lisbon that unless Germany sued for peace within 6 weeks, then Dresden would suffer an Atomic Bomb.

It is this and not the lack of nuclear prowess or inability to procure enough enriched Uranium or Plutonium etc which doomed the Nazi effort. Hitler was deterred and threatened to induce him to begin secret negotiations.


[FONT=&quot][1] Stockholm to Tokyo, No. 232.9 December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, declassified by NSA 1st October 1978[/FONT]

[2] [FONT=&quot]Professor Friedrich Lachner, assistant for twenty years to professor Mache at the Department for Technical Physics at the University of Vienna, wrote a letter from exile in Argentina recently to some German researchers, Mayer and Mehner, claiming that Germany produced 15 of these nukes. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

Exactly where and how did the German get U233? This isotope is incredibly rare, if even present, in naturally occuring uranium. Since they had no seperation process on any scale and no means of making it using breeder technology (eg., Throrium - Uranium conversion.... Th 232 to U 233) where did it come from? This alone makes this whole idea incredibly preposterous on the face of it.
Since the Germans did not possess a working reactor of any sort nor did they have any production scale seperation equipment, magnetic, centrifugal or, otherwise they had no means of producing U233. U238 won't work as you can only fast fission it. For weapons grade material you need U234 at about 95 to 99% enrichment and between 3 and 5% for reactor grade for use in PWR type reactors.