Wearing Nazi symbols in Afghanistan

I've seen referenced in several books in the past, direct references from men serving in the military in wars after WWII. To put it all into basically the same thought, basically all of these references merely stated that they wished they had men that had more Elan, Spirit, Discipline, Professionalism and Comradeship, that the Wehrmacht is famous for. None of these references I read in various titles (and no I don't remember what tites they were but I do remember reading about this in several books) were meant to glorify those jerkholes who committed war crimes.

The Wehrmacht as a whole, cannot be simply all lumped in together with the pricks who were murderous scumbags. I know way too many good German Vets to know that not all of them nor the vast majority of them, ever did anything wrong. that is to say, that they served in the military at first for their Country, but more importantly for their fellow Comrades. If you think im lying? then go out and meet and befriend a few German WWII Vets, and I will guarentee-that if they are also able to trust you? they will tell you basically what I just said above.

PS, I also see that the "Bowing Johanns" out there are trying too lump them all in together-again--which is WRONG.

PSS, one thing I agree with the Gorilla is, that all the Armies out there had their elite soldiers and such. However, whether or not its a cliche? the fact still remains that the German military of WWII had and still has, such a great reputation for it's professionalism and the quality of its Soldiers.

Every military has elite of the elite and those who might not be elite, but sure as hell earned a well-respected reputation from their enemies. Cases in point include the Grossdeutschland Division, the Hermann Goring Div/Pz Korps, the 44th ID, the 7th Panzer, 1st and 5th Geb Divs etc etc etc. The british bad ass guys that stand out in my mind-including other UK armies include: the units that made up the Desert Rats, the Chindits, the Aussies who fought in rough areas like the Kokoda Trail, the Gurkhas etc etc. For the Amis, too many to list but, known butt-kickers: the Big Red One, the Rock of the Marne, the Bloody Bucket, Old Hickory and the T-Patchers I.Ds for starters.

Notable Japanese units include: the Ikhichi Detachment (SP?) the Kawaguchi Brigade and the Sendai Division.

And countless others.

 

But these are S.S. symbols, not Wehrmacht symbols, but even when Wehrmacht symbols such as the Afrika Korps logo are used it still causes outrage. The S.S. itself is deemed a criminal organization which is the real cause for controversy in this case, some S.S. members weren't "evil" but in the grand scheme of things that was a very small fraction and essentially impossible to try and justify such actions with.

No army comes out of a war with their hands completely clean, you will alway have at least one person who does something to the tarnish the reputation of others which is completely unfortunate. In the case of the Wehrmacht however yes there was more than 1 case of war crimes being committed, but does that mean we should throw all their accomplishments, actions, people, etc away (non criminal of course)? With nearly 20 million people in the Wehrmacht, you will have both your "demons and saints". People like Erwin Rommel, Wilm Hosenfeld, Karl Plagge, etc to this day are still honored, remembered, etc for being good soldiers, good human beings, etc.

I partially disagree in that no army should take the evil done by another as something to roll model but using the organization of a system (to a certain extent) or even the people, I don't find anything wrong with that.

Regarding discipline and efficiency, it wouldn't be that far fetched to say the Wehrmacht was pretty disciplined since Hitler wanted to adopt disciplinary actions if a war broke out because he thought that was what allowed Britian, France, etc to conquer Germany in the first World War. I've read a few accounts by Allied veterans who said they were shocked at seeing how efficient the German Army was in prison camps. Not sure on the battlefield, I'm sure they were but if it was more or less than their Allied counterparts is unknown (to me at least).

C.Evans: You bring up a very good point, however, it seems once the link is made between the two objects like someone either in the media or the army did the verdict has essentially been set in stone.

 

I'm the last one to blame individual soldiers. And I have no problem when someone says "The service of Grenadier Hans Müller was always gallant" or "Division xy always fought in a knightly fashion." But the Wehrmacht was a single organisation and the "spirit etc" of the Wehrmacht always comes with the (numerous) war crimes. Everything else is cherry picking.

 

Every army of any decent size that has been involved in prolonged military actions can easily be found guilty of incidents of war crimes.

Canada's army is tiny and has only (really) been in existence since 1968 and we already have at least one atrocity on our record that I know of. I'm speaking of the Somali teen tortured and killed by Canadian troops.

The Wehrmacht was huge and they were placed up against an army unbound by the Hague/Geneva Convention (Russia) that hated them (a mutual feeling, I'm sure).

My point is: what army of that time, placed into similar circumstances, would have come out any differently?

I just think that the equation Wehrmacht = War Crimes is unfair, considering the circumstances.

And yes, I do have a personal connection. My wifes Grandfather (Opa) served with the Wehrmacht in the Balkans.

 

Let's remember here, these were SS symbols, not the Heer, not the Luftwaffe, not the Kreigsmarine. SS emblems.

Trying to justify or excuse this is pointless. The SS was a criminal organization, the Waffen SS only slightly less so than the other branches.

 

Agreed. I jumped the gun a little on my post, jumping from SS to Wehrmacht without explanation.

No one should identify themselves with the SS in any way, shape, or form. Same goes for Waffen SS although I know very little about them - other than that they were a combat branch of the SS.

Interesting story: my father-in-law had an uncle that was forcibly conscripted into the Waffen SS near the end of the war. He had the Aryan look so they just grabbed him and said "You're in the SS." His unit was manning a machine gun and were about to be overrun so he escaped, buried his uniform in an embankment and hid. The rest of his unit was either captured or killed. He was helped out by locals (farmers mostly) until he could make his way back home.

Incredible.

 

I think comparing the Wehrmacht to the S.S. is a bit wrong, legally the Wehrmacht is not a criminal organization although some members were found guilty of war crimes. When talking about the Wehrmacht these crimes should definitely be brought up but to say the entire organization is faulty based on what in the grand scheme of things are a few peoples actions seems incorrect.

Like I said before, essentially no army comes out of a war with their hands completely free. So technically with that logic a US, Canadian, etc soldier who says something like "our ancestors are with us" or something of the sort would also be "inheriting" the spirit of a GI who skinned Japanese troops in The Pacific along with say another GI from the Pacific who say gave water to a dying Japanese soldier to make his final moments more comfortable?

I don't think when people say "XXXX group is with us" in a sense that you are referring to they also mean the criminal aspects as well. If saying a certain group, person, etc is with a soldier makes them adjust better to military life, deal with stress, etc I personally don't have a problem with it unless the people in question are "criminals" or commit a crime themselves.

DissidentAggressor: There is currently or recently was a war crimes trial against a few Canadian soldiers over the treatment of Afgan prisoners. I think their was also something about the treatment of some Middle Eastern detainee in Canada whose case was messed up. This was a pretty big topic a few months ago so I feel kind of stupid for essentially forgetting the details.

 

I believe you're referring to Omar Khadr - a Canadian citizen who was arrested in Afghanistan and detained at Guatanamo Bay. I don't know much about the case, other than that there was some wrongdoing on our gov't's part.

The treatment of the Afghan prisoners I had not heard about. I do know that one of our "diplomatic" soldiers, on a peaceful mission to engage some village elders in a dialog, was invited to sit with them around a fire, at which point someone crept up from behind and killed him with an axe to the back of the head. The perpetrator was subsequently killed by the rest of the Canadian troops that were there. I think they showed admirable restraint in not gunning down the entire village.

As a side note for MilleniumGorilla: I think this is an excellent example of how war crimes can happen - especially when dealing with what is essentially a civilian "partisan" population.

 

Yes that's him! There were a few other similar controversies about people being sent back to their home nations where they were marked for death by the Taliban but not sure if that technically qualifies as a war crime (partially since I don't remember all the details).

Wikipedia has a good entry on the event.

Canadian Afghan detainee abuse scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Partisians are an odd group, it only takes one event to bring people over, perhaps someone saw the killing of the soldier and said "this is wrong, I should help the Canadians by defending my homeland", others might see it and find the killing of the attacker something to motivate them to join the terror groups.

 

i think wearing a waffen ss insignia doesnt exactly determine its waffen ss. it is cewrtain that waffen ss insignia is more decorative than standard heer and this is probably why the soldiers wore such icons.
10divss.gif (7.1 KB)
PzLehrSymbol.jpg (2.8 KB)
even the great panzer lehr doesnt stand a chance at being more pretty!

ps who says the german army were war criminals????? what about hoepner who was a professional tank man if there ever was one?, he was disgusted by the killing and so he was involved in the july plot, unfortuantely he was hung for such offence. and down in the lower ranks sepp brandner who fed russian civillians because they were starving?

now you all think if your country was threatned you would join up? of course you would. why is this different for germany at the time? the german Wehrmacht fought for there country against what they believed to be evil peoples threatening there loved ones.(theres propaganda for ya)

and yes there were soldiers who committed atrocities, but what about russians? how many accounts of there army torturing prisoners and killing senselessly, i read a comment that stated that the children of 1946 1/2 german 1/2 russian... want to know why because the russian army and i quote "raped every german woman from 8 to 80". and the guantanamo bay? torturing ordinary middle easterners, can it get worse? not a single army in the worlds history has ever EVER gone without atrocities.

 

At the Lord Mayor's luncheon at the
Mansion House yesterday Mr.
Churchill spoke of our victory in
Egypt. R.A.F. fighters patrolled over
London during the Premier's speech.
Mr. Churchill said: I notice, my Lord
Mayor, by your speech that you had
reached the conclusion that, the
news from the various fronts has
been somewhat better lately.
(Laughter.) In our wars the episodes
are usually adverse, but the final
result has hitherto been satisfactory.
The eddies swirl around us, but the
tide bears us forward on its broad,
resistless flood. I have never
promised anything but blood, tears.
toil, and sweat. Now, however, we
have a new experience. We have
victory [at El-Alamain] - a
remarkable and definite victory. A
bright gleam has caught the helmets
of our soldiers and warmed and
cheered all our hearts.
The Germans have received that
measure of fire and steel which they
have so often meted out to others.
The fighting between the British and
the Germans was intense and fierce
in the extreme. It was a deadly
grapple. The Germans have been
beaten by the technical apparatus on
which they counted to gain
domination of the world. Especially
is this true in the air, as of the tanks
and of the artillery.
Now this is not the end. It is not even
the beginning of the end. But it is,
perhaps, the end of the beginning.
(Loud cheers.) Henceforward Hitler's
Nazis will have to face in many
theatres that superiority in the air
which they have so often used
without mercy against others.
When I read of the coastal road
crammed with flying German
vehicles under the blasting attacks of
the R.A.F., I could not but remember
those roads of France and Flanders,
crowded not with fighting men but
with helpless refugees - women and
children - fleeing with their pitiful
barrows and household goods, upon
whom such merciless cruelty was
wreaked. I have,

I TRUST, A HUMANE DISPOSITION BUT I MUST SAY I COULD NOT HELP FEELING THAT WHAT WAS HAPPENING HOWEVER GRIEVOUS, WAS ONLY JUSTICE GRIMLY RECLAIMING HER RIGHTS.

We have not entered this war for
profit or expansion. Let me,
however, make this clear: we mean
to hold our own. (Cheers) I have not
become the King's First Minister in
order to preside over the liquidation
of the British Empire. (Cheers.)
I am proud to be a member of that
vast commonwealth and society of
nations and communities gathered
under and around the ancient British
monarch, without which the good
cause might yet have perished from
the face of the earth.
Here we are and here we stand, a
veritable rock of salvation in this
drifting world. Sorry scource Guardian 11/11/09

 

No one is saying all Wehrmact or S.S. soldiers were bad, the Wehrmact was not a criminal organization but it still had some atrocities committed by soldiers who fought in it. The S.S. was a criminal organization but that doesn't mean all members of the S.S. were criminals, C.Evans knows more about the S.S. than I when it comes to this so he can explain it better.

The problem is everything from that era is associated with being a hateful Nazi, even symbols from places like Afrika Korps are treated in such a way.

Everyone had a different reason to fight in the war, this echoes true to all nations, I don't think, very many members here would need to be told about that.

urqh: Maybe I'm slow, but hunh?

 

Ger tank enthusiast bemoans the fate of some. The optimum statement I quote from Churchill is similar to reap the whirlwind...in this thread which has long since gone off topic..russians now brought into the argument on a thread on wearing swastikas in 2009 afghanistan...churchill rightly reminds us succintly when such charges are laid at the door of the allies that justice is being reclaimed .As always of late on here some forget just who was who in ww2.

 

Wearing the Dirlewanger Symbol is certainley justified if you're up 2 a bunch of animals like the taliban, the only way is to identify yourself with a identical idiot like Dr.Oskar Dirlewanger. Dirlewanger was wounded more than 12 times. Led his man into combat personaly (unusual for someone of his rank öbergruppenführer der reservewaffen SS). With primitive beasts like taliban, You need someone who leads a bunch of crminals into combat. Let them torture them (Taliban) in a way they would curse there own mothers that they ever gave birth to them, rape there ugly mustache wifes and daughters, kill there children and baby's in a painfull way. For this is the only language, beasts like Taliban will ever understand. Even Mother Russia had to retreat from Afhanistan. That means certainley something. Dirlewanger would have take of business overthere, let every Nato soldier take an example of Dirlewanger, because if they don't our so called free western world will be poisened with Taliban in 20 years. Yo GI's remember 9 11. Kill and torture them all, and god will sort them out! For Freedom and Victory !!!!!!!!

 

Haha I see where you're coming from, not entirely sure about the "reap the whirlwind" thing. though.

Not like you will ever see this being banned but their are better examples to follow than that of Dirlewanger, sure he was shot a few times and survived but he and those under his command were responsible for some of the worst atrocities known to man.

Edit: Criminals wouldn't do any good, they would just increase hatred towards the occupying force, perhaps increase Partisian activity. The problems many Germans faced during their Russian retreat for instance was on the way back partisian activity only increased for a variety of reasons, one of them being the the treatment of Russians by some S.S. and Wehrmacht members.

 

They need to put a guard on the back door. How'd this guy get in here?

 

wow all this happened in one day! i think raping the women and torturing babies is a little over the top but if the taliban calls ud infidels who deserve to burn in hell i believe we should be allowed to call them animals.

 

Why should we as the so called 'civilized' nations stoop down to there level? Why should we start doing atrocities like the Nazis of ww2 to bring terrorists out of the open?

Has it all come down to a means to an end, a victory at any cost?

 

Things would have been vastly different if the S.S. had not done what they did in the occupied territories.

On the other hand, I read that Russia actively encouraged partisan activity, even with the knowledge that one German death usually resulted in many times that number in civilian, "retribution" deaths.

The utter disregard for human life displayed by the Soviets is truly astounding.

 

Some members of the Wehrmacht did such thing as well, you don't need to kill anyone for Partisans to gain support. Especially with the Eastern Front you can't look at things in a "black and white" sense when it comes to looking at what people did and why they did it. Guy Sajer in his book The Forgotten Soldier goes into some of these, explaining what conditions might exist for them to attack a civilian, partisan, prisoner, etc and what might exist for civilians to support partisan bands.

Partisians themselves didn't have such clean hands if you think about it, a majority of them would mutulate or kill inhumanely. When it came to the civillian populations they would use bully tactics to get what they wanted since a source of supplies, food, etc is vital for partisian bands to work.

I think unofficially all sides would support partisian activity since it only helps them in the end.