Memory of the camps

Hold on a sec here. So what you're telling me is that the high mortality rates at Auschwitz where due to executions of inmates by the SS Guards (or whoever did the dirty work there) - is that it?

Why on earth would they murder someone and then walk over and dutifully record that fact in some record book? It doesn't make any sense.

For that matter: why keep mortality records at all? Just say the missing prisoners escaped or were released and be done with it. "They never made it home after we released them? Not our problem."

That's what I would do. It's far more logical than making up some fake "cause of death". What were the main causes of death as recorded in the camp records? Can you tell me?

Well I've discussed the matter at length with someone from the German side and let me tell you, they tell a different story than the one you've heard. And one equally worthy of the consideration of thoughtful people, I might add.

Where on earth do these numbers come from?!? Did some German record the fact that 30,000 inmates died during construction of a chemical plant?

I have a very strong desire to learn what happened in Nazi Germany. As I recall there were at least two sides to that story: the Allied side and the German side. I believe we should take both into consideration if we are to be intellectually honest.

So the US government rounding up people for internment is "inconsequential"? Wake up! You are doing your country a disservice with your blind patriotism.

I'll come back to this.
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I'll come back to this as well.

You know, I could say almost this exact thing back to you.

Basic facts. That is actually what I'm after. And I'm not trying to "lecture" anyone. I've told you what position I adopt when dealing with history. One thing I learned from Socrates: just keep asking questions.

But give me a moment here.

Tellingly, you repeatedly use the word "German" when you should be using the more specific "Nazi German" or "Nazi Germany" in the more general sense.

Now (as a previous poster suggested) put yourself in the Germans shoes. You are an ordinary civilian suddenly accused of being an accessory to murder. MURDER! And this apparently by the mere fact of your ethnic origin.

Does this seem fair to you?

You repeatedly fail to differentiate between Germans, members of the SS, and Nazi Germany as a country. You lump them all in together using the tacitly stated equation "Germans = Bloodthirsty Nazi Fanatics".

This is problem number one.

Problem number two is your refusal to consider that the U.S. might be just a wee bit guilty of behavior that bears a disconcerting resemblance to some things Nazi Germany did during the war.

Leaving aside the Japanese internment camps (let's call that "Phase One"), let's look at Guatanamo Bay ("Phase Two"). Is this anything other than an internment camp containing inmates belonging to an identifiable ethnic group, rounded up and shipped over there because they were considered a threat to the security of your country?

Furthermore, they have been tortured and "confessions" have no doubt been extracted under extreme duress without legal counsel being present (which, according to some things I've read, echoes the Nuremberg tribunals).

Stripped of their basic human rights, these individuals have effectively ceased to exist, though they remain alive.

Where, then, do you get the notion that you can occupy the moral high ground?

No doubt you will say that there is no systematic execution of Guatanamo inmates being carried out by the US - as there reportedly was in Auschwitz.

Fair enough.

Now let's look once again at that all important distinction between Germans, Nazi's in general, and members of the SS-Totenkopfverbände that ran the camps.

Of these three, it was undoubtedly the camp guards that performed any executions of inmates that happened. And for me, that's where the heart of the matter lies.

Why did they do this?
How much / how often did they do this?
How many did they do this to?

Of course I've heard the figure of 6-million but (once again) intellectual honesty compels me to verify this number on my own.

Let me re-state that I am not an apologist. I am not trying to excuse anyone from anything they did. If anything, I consider myself an investigative journalist: ignorant of many facts but willing to do the legwork and ask the questions that may lead to some semblance of the truth in this emotionally charged issue.

You'll recall that my initial post also made reference to Darfur and it's equivalency to the Holocaust. By including all the "other" camps I was not so much trying to establish moral equivalency as much as I was trying to point out that they form a continuum. A continuum that consists roughly of: identifiable ethnic group -> ignorance -> fear -> threat -> persecution (sometimes government sponsored) -> internment -> murder.

Can you not see this?

In your mind, does the Holocaust remain unique in all of human history?

Regards,
-D-

 

I'm not the rogue to whom you addressed this post, but I feel that the Holocaust was unique, and for the simple reason that it was directed at a specific group of people (untermensche), and carried out on an industrial scale in camps built for that purpose. The Aktion Reinhard Camps, not all KZs, but those alone were unique.

Prisoners died in other camps of overwork, starvation, and disease; but in those camps they went there to die. Not to be worked to death, not to be ill-treated until they did expire, but to be killed. That was their unique purpose for existance. The other thousands of camps weren't designed for that single purpose. Death.

Auschwitz-Birkenau
The largest Nazi extermination camp.
Belzec
From march 1942 until early 1943, it is estimated that about 600,000 Jews were murdered in Belzec extermination camp.
Chelmno:
Chelmno, also known as Kulmhof, was a small town roughly 50 miles from the city of Lodz, Poland. It was here that the first mass killings of Jews by gas took place as part of the 'Final Solution'.
Majdanek
The killing operations began in Majdanek in April 1942 and ended in July 1944. Majdanek also provided slave labor for munitions works and Steyr-Daimler- Puch weapons factory. The estimated number of deaths is 360,000, including Jews, Soviet POWs and Poles.
Sobibor
Sobibor was the second extermination camp to come into operation in the Aktion Reinhard program. Estimated number of deaths: 250,000, the majority being Jews.
Treblinka
Opening for "business" on July 23, 1942, with the beginning of the evacuation of the Warsaw ghetto, some 245,000 Warsaw Jews and 112,000 Jews from other places in the Warsaw district were murdered in Treblinka by September 21. 337,000 Jews from the Radom district, 35,000 from the Lublin district and 107,000 from the Bialystok district also met their death in Treblinka with 738,000 Jews who had been residents of the General Gouvernement. From outside Poland many thousands of Jews were transported to and killed in Treblinka: 7.000 from Slovakia, 8,000 from Theresienstadt concentration camp, 4,000 Jews from Greece, and 7,000 Jews from the Macedonia portion of Bulgaria. In addition to the Jews, some 2,000 gypsies were killed in Treblinka.

See:

http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Intro/MainIntroEng.html

and:

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/index.html

Oh and BTW, in the relocation camps for the Japanese-Americans they had the highest live birth-rate in all of America, the lowest death-rate from natural causes and disease, and the longest life expectancy rate during the war years. And that went for the German-Americans and Italian-American camps as well. And not ALL were required to report to camps, only those within certain distances of our coasts, east/west. Over half of those originally required to report to the camps left to other areas away from the coasts as soon as they could find housing, and over 3000 Japanese-American youth went to colleges during the war years at US government expense, full boat scholarships, books, clothing allowances, tuition, room & board.

 

Not getting in all the chat here but Pa discovered and helped unearth the bodies that were just burried in a big hole at Hadamar Killing Center with his unit and it haunts him still to this day... He also helped liberate a couple others but he never told me the name of them.. he said it was terrible and the smell is unforgettable.. it brings a tear to his eyes and he always says how could people do this to eachother.. very said and my heart goes out to all the those who were there that made it out alive and the ones that past.. No matter what camp you look at there were things done to humans that are unthought of and out right wrong.. war is HELL and if you have never been in it you just can't understand.. that is what Pa tells me.. and you know .. I believe him 100%.. I wish we lived in a world where this stuff does not go on.. but that is not the case.. even in peoples homes things are done to others that are out of this world wrong.. was one camp worse than the other.. you could not tell that to a person who was in them.. to that person it was the worst.. when bad things like these happen it bad no matter what...

 

Mr brndirt1, as always you have an encouraging spirit which draws us back to the task at hand.... displaying, and clearly defining the fact of the matter. Thank you for the information, and links provided

Sandy,

I had no idea your Father was a part of this undertaking... based on what I've seen and read, I can only imagine the sights and smells. A dark time in history indeed, with an incredible loss of precious life.

I've gained a lot from this thread, and most importantly, that not everyone see's eye to eye.... more encouragement for me to keep learning!

all the best,

Jem

 

Thanks for the info Clint. Your knowledge is tremendous never knew that about the Japanese Americans going to college. By the way like your new avatar.

 

[FONT=&quot]Well, what do you think? Do you really believe those millions of Jews, Poles, Russians, and other nationalities died because the Germans were prevented from delivering food and medicine? There is more than enough evidence of deliberate extermination efforts; the gas chambers, mass graves full of people who had been shot execution style, photos of people in the terminal stages of starvation. How can anyone reasonably deny that?
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[FONT=&quot]Because they were Germans and they expected to win the war. They wouldn't even have considered genocide if they didn't think they could get away with it. They kept records because extermination of the Jews and other "undesirables", was government policy, and their superiors expected to see details in their progress reports towards that goal. My God, how can you look at pictures of the piles of bodies in the extermination camps and deny they were victims of a deliberate policy of murder?
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Yes, I can imagine. And how do they explain away all the evidence? How do they excuse the brutality and abuse? Do they say, “We didn’t know.”?

Tooze cites German SS records introduced as evidence in the IG Farben Case VIII. IG Farben “leased” the slave labor from the SS and had to pay a fee to the SS for each individual working on the construction project. Those who died while working for IG Farben had to be replaced. Thus, we have a precise documentary record of the number of slave workers who died and under what circumstances.

Yeah, just as long as you can somehow work in an indictment of the US.

I find your pretense of intellectual honesty to be highly questionable, particularly since you seem to be questioning well established facts about the Holocaust.

I was referring to the statement that all countries “rounded up people” in the interest f national security during WW II. That is an inconsequential fact. What happened to those people afterwards is what is important. In Germany they died in the millions; in the US they were detained, and eventually released to resume their normal lives.

Why not answer it now? The ambiguity certainly taints your claim to “intellectual honesty

[FONT=&quot]Again, your motives are certainly thrown into question. If you honestly believe there is a moral equation between American internment camps and German concentration camps, then your knowledge of WW II is also questionable[/FONT]. The excuse that you are "impartial" rings hollow to me; an answer is required now.

[FONT=&quot]You could if you had presented any facts or cited any authoritative sources, but you haven’t. So far, all we have are your unsupported opinions, doubts, and a ridiculous inference that the German concentration camps had a higher rate of mortality because [/FONT]they were in "active war zones" and the Germans were prevented from delivering supplies. Do you really expect anyone to believe that?

Well, if you were just asking questions and were willing to accept the answers that would be one thing, but you are implying certain suppositions which are completely false.

I use the term “German” because the German Concentration camps were created by German government policy decisions, were funded by German finacial institutions, were planned and built by German contractors, were equipped with facilities provided by German manufacturers, and were run by German personnel. I do not intend to descend into an argument over which German political/military organizations were directly responsible for the murders of the inmates

Resoundingly YES!

[FONT=&quot]Oh, except for those Germans who claim they “didn’t know”. And also those who protested “Kristal Nacht”[/FONT]

No, it’s not a problem; it’s an expression of the fact that Germans were generally in collusion in the creation of the Final Solution and tolerated a government that ignored fundamental human emotions.

[FONT=&quot]No, let’s keep this on the topic which is the American internment camps compared to the German concentration camps. What might, or might not, be happening at Guantanamo or Darfur, or anywhere else at the present time has nothing to with that topic, nor in fact, with World War II.
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Do you really mean to say you think that only the SS camp guards bear any responsibility for the deaths of millions of Jews and other groups? That the people who ran the companies that “leased” slave labor and knew that those slaves would be worked to death, bear no responsibility? That the men who created the government policy of mass extermination have nothing to answer for? That the soldiers who rounded up the victims, forced them into cattle cars and shipped them off to certain death are blameless? That the Germans who knew of the concentration camps, but tolerated that knowledge because the inmates were “only Jews” are not complicit?

And you presume to lecture me on your “intellectual honesty”.

[FONT=&quot]Well, the admission that you are a “journalist” explains a lot.
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No, not as you evidently do. Governments have a legitimate interest in protecting their constituent groups. The dilemma is that sometimes a government must favor some groups over others in order to do that.

During WW II, there were two groups that were deliberately inconvenienced by the American government in order to protect the majority of the population. The first, and by far, the largest group was young American males. The government drafted these individuals in large numbers, took them from their families, imposed rigid rules of behavior, forced them into involuntary labor and other service, and often subjected them to conditions where it was certain that they would be maimed or killed. Nobody asked them if this was Ok with them and nobody seems to feel that such actions were immoral or ethically wrong.

The second group was Japanese residents and Japanese-American citizens residing on the West Coast of this country. The government, in possession of evidence that the Japanese government was making active efforts to recruit these individuals for the purpose of espionage, rounded up these people, temporarily interned them in camps in remote locations, and instituted screening procedures to determine if any specific individual represented a risk to national security. They were not tortured, required to work (although many did), starved, murdered, or in any way put at risk of death. In many ways, their ordeal was not as severe as that of the typical draftee. And there certainly is no moral equivalency between the internment of Japanese Americans and the German death camps. Your “continuum theory” does not hold water in the practical sense.

No, unfortunately not. There are parallels in the history of the Soviet Union (yeah, I know they were our allies in WW II), in China, and in the Japanese Empire during WW II. I happen to believe that the Japanese murdered more people in Asia during WW II than the Germans did in Europe. Moreover, like the German atrocities, the Japanese policies were deliberately promulgated by the Japanese government headed by Emperor Hirohito.

My wife is Chinese and her parents and older siblings experienced the Japanese occupation of Borneo at first hand. I have heard the stories of Japanese brutality from the people who actually experienced it. One thing I am certain of, the US government did nothing in WW II that even remotely compares to the German concentration camps, the Japanese policy of murder, or the Soviet atrocities against their own people.

 

Jem.. Yup.. PA was pretty much everywhere in Europe.. His unit was attached to so many different untis and seen soooo mcuh.. I got the unit history and after reading it all his stories he told for years really made sense.. I was able to understand all and now I can put a time to it and read in history books about it too.. It's amazing

He told me about Hadamar and how whe they unclvered these bodies there was a lady that was pregnant witht he baby still in her and they did this to her.. Her one eye was open and she looked as if to say help me.. This lady is a big part of Pa's nightmares.. He sees her a lot. I think because PA loves kids.. He said he used to save his chocolate and give it to the kids when he seen some.. and one timme he had to graba kid in his foxhole with him cuz the kid would have been shot right where he stood if Pa didn't. I think this is why Pa is the way he is with my kids.. He always watches them and makes sure they are okay and he did that with me when I was a kid too.

 

Go read Elie Wiesel or any number of survivor accounts of the camp. Go read the Jaeger Report. Try the witness accounts of the survivors of the Einsatsgruppe operations in Kiev. Does Nuremberg trial ring a bell? Go read what SS men testified about what they did or saw others doing.

If that's not enough to convince you, nothing ever will and posting in this thread is a waste of pixels.

 

I'd have to choose 'false' at this time -> Operation Reinhard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Rounded up. Yes. How else would one say it?

But I agree: there are a number of direct statements attributed to high-ranking Nazi's on this point.

My point is not that the Allies did exactly the same thing. That would be a ridiculous assumption.

My point is all the various camps, ethnic cleansings, and holocausts can be viewed as points along a sort of moral continuum. Meaning: they are not equal (as I've been accused of trying to prove), but they are related.

The parallels to today are quite striking when you take Guatanamo Bay into account.

After WW 1, Hitler had his scapegoats all picked out and only needed a chance at power to put his plan into action. He was utterly convinced that both Communists and Jews were to blame for Germany's problems.

If you accept the "moral continuum" postulated above, I believe there are strong comparisons to be drawn with the way Muslims are being looked at in N. America today.

You must admit that - in the interests of homeland security - any Muslim male could be forcibly detained, questioned without legal counsel being present and, if such action is deemed appropriate, sent off to an internment facility for further interrogation.

Perhaps this has changed recently but this was the case for at least the past 8 years.

To us, this has come appear as a "necessary evil" - or however we justify it.

I am merely pointing out the parallels and the strange fact that no matter who does what to whom on the world stage, only the holocaust ever seems to get much airplay.

 

In light of the above, I respectfully withdraw from this discussion. I feel you are not interested in a balanced discussion of this subject.

Regards,
-D-

 

You're damned right we don't welcome your kind here.

 

Yes, I can imagine why you are anxious to withdraw from this discussion.

If your definition of a "balanced discussion" is that I am required to agree with your assertions, then, no, you aren't likely to get a "balanced discussion" from anyone on this board.

The idea that detaining people is morally the same thing as reducing them to slavery, torturing them, starving them, or murdering them, is untenable and anyone not intent on equating the American actions in WW II with that of Germany certainly realizes that.

 

Fortunately that is not my definition of "balanced discussion". However, this will still be my last post on this topic.

 

What "kind" might you be referring to?

 

Speaking of "untenable", I guess we can't talk about this then -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_firebombing[/QUOTE]

Ok, so your contention that the American internment camps for Japanese Americans were equivalent to the German concentration camps has pretty much been exploded. So now you want to equate things like the "London Cage" (involving POW's who also were Nazi Party members), alleged post war mistreatment of certain segments of the German population, and the Dresden strategic bombing offensive, with the Holocaust. Is that correct?

Or is it that you just don't like Americans and (possibly) Brits, and want to demonstrate that they behaved no better than the Germans during WW II?

 

Well, it have been pretty heated conversation here. Reading some of those posts made me angry.

I simply put that link here to make known of that horrible movie that has been made about finding those camps. I don´t want anyone to watch those films and after that arguing with me if Holocaust ever happened.

Obviously, we can reflect the holocaust to the Darfur killings, Serbia, Vietnam, Cambodia or whatever and have a conversation in the same context and think why haven´t we learned nothing. But we can't say that holocaust was a minor mistake by the Germans or try to justify it by any means.