Retreat On the Eastern Front.

Hela Bay was part of east Prussia of course not in our present time frame, during the spring of 45 during the exodus the sea lanes or bays/islands were kept open this is under official German documentation recovered found and present in several German sources. I have about 20 maps two from the war from veterans serving in the area and during then retreat.

Egbert Kiesers Danziger Bucht 1945 although small book is a good one. anything by Heiz Schön the experte on the Baltic exodus, Bekkers Fluct übers Meer is another one along with the very detailed maps in W. Müllers Schiffsschicksale Ostsee 1945. the last covers insane fighting in the area of Gotenhafen and towards Swinemünde and yes I know precisely where these cities lie.

Dieckerts Der Kampf um Ostpreussen is also another valuable reference // plenty of detailed mapping even in this volume and very nice schematic of the Danziger Bucht, Hela and of course Gotenhafen now incorrectly called Gdingen in my opinion.

the sea ways were open to the last. Northwind I have very strong references and ties to the KM Schnellbooten that removed refugees and Army personell from the land ways including a very close friends flight if you will on the last ship to Copenhagen

 

Just old men, I dont think so. I have a HH PK press photo showing Hauptmann Peter Kiesegan RKT, instucting Hitler Youth on how to use the Panzer Faust. These pics were taken in 43, 44 and 45. In the 43 shot, Kiesegan has 4 TDBs on his arm.

 

1. I didn´t say ONLY old men! 2. Yes, they also instructed young guys,some of them 15-16 yrs. old. And they also instructed women by using a panzerfaust. But instructing someone about using these weapon and knocking out a tank - these are totally different things. 3.Tere were naturally also still regular troops, although lots of the units had several kind of problems like I said 4. We´re talking about eastern front retreat (right?) and we´re talking about East Prussia. So we could not talk about 1943! In 1943 the lines were still hundred of miles away from the german borders in 1943 ...

 

do a study in the books I mention north-wind and you will find the reality of whom served in multiple units that faced the onslaught of the Soviets. If not you are denying yourself some very interesting and enlightening reading. Even in 45 with the backs against the wall in the literal sense the German units were co-hesive and strong the prob was the access of further re-reinforcements was denied

 

I dont have time for a better reply but yep-were talking about 1943.

 

If so, your comment and the pictures of Hauptmann Peter Kiesegan RKT, instructing Hitler Youth on how to use the Panzer Faust had nothing (or really less) to do with the retreator tactics on the Eastern Front!
Instructing Hitler Youth on how to use Panzer Faust was a general part of the para-military training of the Hitler Youth. I am sure you could find pictures of 1941/1942 as well showing instructions how to use different kind of weapons to Hitler Youth... how do use the Panzer Faust or a gun were elements to prepare young men for their later role as a soldier in the German Wehrmacht.

 

This varies quite a bit.

If the German units involved were reasonably intact and capable of movement they usually fell back in good order moving in bounds. That is, part of the unit fell back to some intermediate position, then the next leap frogged over it until the entire unit was at the new defense line.
Where German units became surrounded or largely outflanked usually, they simply withdrew as quickly as possible. This meant that heavy equipment and other such stuff was abandoned in the process; particularly if there were serious geographic obstacles in the way like a large river. The Germans in such situations did try hard to make sure the most important tactical equipment such as tanks got priority in crossing and being saved from capture or destruction.
The worst cases of this sort of retreat turned into what the Germans termed Rückmarsch and those who managed to make it to friendly lines Rückkämpfer. Here, unit cohesion completely broke down. Military units turned into small groups of desperate, unorgainzed men fighting their way by stealth and luck back to wherever the new defense line was.

Regardless of which situation you have out of the above even small amounts of resistance by disorgainzed German units often turned into major causes of local slowing of the enemy's rate of advance. But, post Kursk, the major reason Soviet offensives ground to a halt generally had more to do with them outrunning their supply lines than German resistance. The Red Army had about a 300 mile ability to advance before they ran out of supplies no matter what the resistance was.
In the East the Luftwaffe, what little there was of it, was usually constrained by fuel as to how many missions they could fly. For bomber units with aircraft like the He 111 or He 177 the fuel situtation was often such that they could only undertake one large bombing raid every couple of weeks or once a month at most. By early 1944 it grew so bad that KG 1 with its He 177 was essentially permanently grounded due to lack of fuel.
So, while a few figher bombers or ground attack aircraft like Stukas or Hs 129 might fly a mission each day their numbers were so small they had little or no impact on the overall situation.
The Red Airforce never really gained air superiority like there was in the West until late 1944 simply because they were both not technically capable of it and because the theater was so large. So, there was never the huge danger from air attack in the East that there was in the West. One can note as the Red Army approached the Western Allies lines Western Allied air forces did occasionally, and devastatingly, attack Soviet columns mistaking them for German. This led to the large white crosses on Russian tank turrets and on other vehicles as an air recognition signal.

 

I already know that. However, his instructed youth were sent to the Eastern Front where they used his tank-busting techniques to good use. Also, I KNOW he never commended them in Combat but, as referred earlier, that photo i have is a series of 3 and all were he and these kids training in near battlefield conditions so they can get adjusted more-to the sounds of battle and such. This was also back in the day when they had more time for this kind of training.

 

Please give me an idea what you mean by "... training these kids in near battlefield conditions so they can get adjusted more to the sound of battle and such?" I am absolutely sure (absolutely) that these kids were not trained in near battlefields, so they can get adjusted more-to sounds of battle and such! They maybe trained on troop exercise areas (so the Hitler Youth can get adjusted to dirt and mud of battlefields) - but that´s it ... but no training near battlefields in 1943. In 1943 they would have to do a 10 days lasting trip to train near battlefields so they could adjusted more to sounds of battle and such, right?

 

I'd recommend Helmut Altner's book Berlin Dance of Death on this subject. By late 1944 new recruits in the German military were getting virtually no training whatsoever. They were being mustered in, given the oath and paybook and, off to the front you go; frequently with minimal arms and equipment as well.
After Himmler took over the replacement army in October 1944 and abolished the Werkreis system for all intents what was happening more and more frequently was that all troops on leave etc., and those new recruits were simply being formed into march battalions under an officer or two and sent to some part of the front to fight. Didn't matter what your last or current unit was, what your military skills set might be, you were just rounded up and sent helter skelter to the front as a warm body.

 

You were right when we were talking about late 1944 and naturally 1945. But not in 1943! The lines were still more than 1.000 miles away to train Hitler Youth near the front to get thme adjusted to the sound of battle and such ... that´s what I am talking about!

 

Starting in mid 1942 through about late 1943, early 44, the field army set up several training divisions on the East Front to run new replacements through for additional training because they weren't getting what they needed in Germany. These Feldausbildungs Divisions show up after the defeat of 6th Army at Stalingrad in particular.

They became necessary because basic instruction in Germany was both shortened by eliminating alot of live fire time (ammunition shortages) and field exercises. Space and material issues were the reasons here. The other cause was the culling of many non-combat arms and other services for replacements. These troops lacked basic infantry skills even if they were nominally supposed to be trained in them.
This later block was often shipped straight to the front without any additional training whatsoever. You see this in the Luftwaffe Field Divisions for example. Alot of this lack of training of replacements even in 1943 is simply due to the general deterioration of the war situation for Germany.

Another frequent use of the Feldausbildungs Division was for anti-partisan and garrison duties while training new replacements. In a sense, they were training replacements to get used to the nature of battle at the front in a less demanding setting.

 

Your report about Feldausbildungs-Divisions are absolutely correct. My answers focused on the statements of "C.Evans" that the "Nazis trained Hitler Youth kids in near battlefield conditions so they can get adjusted more to the sound of battle and such" ... I never found informations that there were Feldausbildungs-Divisions with members of the Hitler Youth in 1942 or 1943 (maybe late 1944) - but I guess you don´t want to argue that. The possible period for training new wehrmacht soldiers (the period when they started serving till the moment they had to fighht on the line) became much shorter during the war. The high loses of soldiers on the Eastern front made it necessary to accelerate the reinforcement by shortening the training of the soldiers. That reduced naturally the combat effectiveness of the divisions. So the Feldausbildungs-Divisions were one aspect to find a solution for the lack of practical experience.

 

As far as I know Hitler Youth up until late 1944, if under the age of about 17 - 18 were primarily employed by the Luftwaffe as ammunition numbers in flak batteries within the Reich. Once they reached the current age for recruitment they were transfered to either their Werkreis and then inducted into the Wehrmacht or they volunteered for the SS and were inducted into that service.
They would then receive additional training as appropriate and be shipped to their new command. But, I don't think that Hitler Youth were deliberately shipped to the front for acclimitazion at any point.

 

Incredible losses to German Army during the summer of 1944: Normandy, Bagration and then Jassy–Kishinev Aug 1944:

The Jassy-Kishinev Operation was a Soviet offensive against Axis forces, which took place in Eastern Romania during 20–29 August 1944. The 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Fronts of the Red Army engaged Army Group South Ukraine. The offensive resulted in the encirclement and complete decimation of defending German forces, allowing the Soviet Army to resume its strategic advance further into Eastern Europe. It also forced Romania to switch allegiance from the Axis powers to the Soviet Union.

The German formations suffered very high irrecoverable losses of about 200,000 men with 115,000 POWs, out of which 55,000 died before being transported to the Soviet Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jassy–Kishinev_Offensive_(August_1944)

 

I guess that often that the operational effect of the Panzerfaust is always overrated. German operation reports from the year 1944 said that only 1.6% of destroyed russian tanks were destroyed by using a Panzerfaust!

 

Sorry I didnt see your reply before now but, as with replacements, they were trained in and near where combat was taking place, so as to get used to battlefield situations, noise, smells etc quicker so that they were not totally surprised as to what war was like, when they were finally sent as a replacement to some unit. i know that they had training units of various size that were on or near combat areas. These units ranged in size from battalion to regiment to brigade and even in division sized units. This happened all the time-and yes much of it on the Eastern Front. I cant cite exact unit numbers but they are mentioned in many many books. Just a matter of reading them for yourself I guess.

Anyway, men were getting "conditioned" and "readied" for service on the front lines through these units and their on or near the battlefield locale. Im not sure what else I can say on this? but it is a known fact that this was a technique the Germans used throughout the war years.

Cheers--C.

 

good mornig Nordwind,do you have lageost15feb45 and lageost28feb45 for the souhern flank (HG"E",2PzArmée).thank you!