German press photo of crashed Spitfire

I bought this photo of a crashed British WW2 aircraft being dismantled by Germans at the flea market today. I THINK it shows a Spitfire but I am not well versed in British aircraft. I have not been able to find out anything about the Squadron code of "B". This is a press photo from ATLANTIC in Berlin and is dated 20.4.42 (April 20, 1942). I used the on line translator to translate the caption on the strip of paper glued to the back of the photo. It reads: "And the end of the song: All 14 aircraft wrecks will be removed by German salvage squads for the scrap heap."

I am trying to figure out the aircraft ID and perhaps the squadron. So I also post an extreme blow up of the 2 emblems below the cockpit. They may ID the squadron. Does anybody know the aircraft type and squadron?

Thanks, Paul

 

Take a look here.

RAF Squadron Codes - WWII
http://www.ww2f.com/information-requests/19683-raf-squadrons.html

 

I am aware of that site (and others), but there is no "B" squadron code listed.

Paul

 

Hey Paul, I recognized the marking in your third pic before. In a book I haven't read in years. Called markings of the RAF for models came out in 1979. That third pis is a nazi swastica with the two finger V for victory bashing through the middle of it. Here is a pic of what I found. The other symbol I have'nt figured out yet.

 

The roundel type (A1-wide outer yellow band)) was changed to C-C1 ( no yellow band or thin yellow outer band) on 21st May 1942. Thus the aircraft was shot down before the end of May. This thread shows that sometimes the Squadron codes were 'reversed' and that the regulation FY*B was sometimes transposed as B*FY (611 Squadron)
611 Squadron lost a Spitfire near Dieppe on 18/4/42
Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

 

Maybe the picture is copyrighted. Here is the link that shows your insignia.
WINGS PALETTE - Supermarine Spitfire - Germany (Nazi) it is the first spitfire at the top.

 

Ok so with the information I learned in this thread I decided to find out more. Since we don't have the full ID of the plane we can't be 100% sure that this is him, but with the information below is rather convincing. So the only pieces of information we have to work with are those two markings, the plane type, the "B" ID and the location + date. So with that in hand I went looking. Now heres the thing, the RAF reported 19-21. April 1942RAF/FC: No Casualties & Combats: However, an aircraft was flying on April,18/42 but reported no casualty and were flying this:

But the Germans reported this:
Both sides reported that on April,20/42 no more then 1 plane had contact. Now that is from my source of information so I'm not sure if its 100% correct.

Anyways, after about two hours of searching I got off track and ended up with a man named Sgt. A.P.F. Vilboux, I don't even remember why I chose to stick with him because the dates were wrong and I wasn't even sure if it was his plane. However, I stayed with his name and got all this information so if some is looking for a Mr.Vilboux then here you go. Anyways, on Aug,19/42 well over 14 RAF planes were down in Dieppe so that supports that news quote you posted, supporting this picture: Here is the other picture of the Spitfire from another forum that Kenny posted.

Here is the roll of honor for the 611 Squadron, nothing reported for April. 611 Squadron - Roll of Honour
That's about it for me right now. The dates are messing us up the most right now so tomorrow I'll see if I can find some German news archives from 1942.

Links for anyone interested in Mr.Viboux:

Memoresist
Dieppe Raid - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
production page 031
Dieppe: Derribos... ¿alemanes? y pérdidas británicas.

 

Hi,

Thanks to all the people who have taken the time to reply to my question so far. It is proving to be an interesting discussion. I thought I would post a scan of the back of the press photo and perhaps someone who reads German might get some info from it.

In the image below the text at the bottom is a strip of paper glued to the back of the photo. The center text from this strip is what I had machine translated as "And the end of the song: All 14 aircraft wrecks will be removed by German salvage squads for the scrap heap." I did not machine translate the rest of the text on the strip.

The top of the image shows a blue rubber stamp of the ATLANTIC PRESS SERVICE and some handwritting on the back of the photo.

Paul

 

4443c - violating the swastika - retaliation was not missing.

The second box in the picture is talking about copy right or something along that line.

The name PK-Aufn.-Kriegsber shows up on google quite a bit. I believe hes the photographer.

If you insert this PK-Aufn.-Kriegsber into the search box then you will get a list of photos with his name in the description.

http://pallas.cegesoma.be/pls/opac/opac.search?lan=N&rqdb=1

I'm also using an online translator so its a very rough translation.

Its a good idea to start from the source again, which is the photo. We need to identify which newspaper the photo was published in. I discovered many archives today for German and French news papers but there are too many to go through so we need more information to be more specific in our search.

 

Some random observations:

1) 107thcav You appear to be correct in the ID of the one symbol as a swastika with the "V" piercing it. The picture on the webpage you sited is so small it is hard to see. If you find a bigger image of the emblem or any association of this emblem with a squadron or unit please let us know.
2) If the "code" of the numbers on the Spitfires was often reversed (as several sources say) there is no reason why this photo would have to be from squadron 611. Since we can only see the single letter "B" to the left of the roundel we have no way of knowing what the squadron code on the other side of the roundel is. It could be the "B" plane in any squadron.
3) As for the photo. I have no further information on what newspaper the photo might have appeared in. I have posted both the front and back. If it was like AP Newsphotos it was released to a lot of newspapers and may have appeared in many German newspapers.
4) Although there is a date of April 20, 1942 on the photo, the date the Spitfire crashed may have been the 20th, or anytime before then. Perhaps the photo was not taken until the salvage operation began...which could have been days after the crash.

Paul

 

To see a bigger image of the 107thcav posted you need to click on the plane you want to see in a larger version.

I believe you're correct about the dates when the photo was published and when the actual crash happen. We need to find we newspaper published this photo for more information. I'll take a look at some this week.

Some links of planes from the RAF that had the code "B".

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/52/9/8#48
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/52/9/12#144
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/52/9/16#262
http://www.thescale.info/news/publish/norwegian-spitfire-9.shtml

 

Following a tip from this forum:
The A2A Simulations Community • View topic - Query on some markings (RAF)

I looked in two Jagdwaffe series books. Battle of Britain Phase Three September October 1940 and Jagdwaffe v4s1 - Holding The West 1941-1943. I couldn't find the photo that were looking for but I'm quite sure its in the Jagdwaffe series. I'm not which one though. If anyone knows which one it might be in please let me know.

Here is another aircraft that has the same markings as the one were looking for.
Supermarine Spitfire Mk.I/II | Supermarine | Flugzeuge unter fremder Flagge

Here is some serial looks up on spitfires.
Spitfire production summary

Hopefully we can find the photo were looking for in one of these Jagdwaffe books.

 

Very interesting story behind this aircraft:
Google Translate

 

The victory sign piercing the swastika has been definately identified. The best picture I have seen so far is on the page Supermarine Spitfire Mk.I/II | Supermarine | Flugzeuge unter fremder Flagge provided by Clark (you have to use the German page not the translated page for the link to the enlarged picture to work). Here is the sign from that page compared to the sign from the press photo of the crashed Spitfire. I think it is just a coincidence that the only pictures of this symbol found so far (located by Clark and 107thcav) are both on Spitfires in German hands.

For a different version of this symbol look at the picture at Getty Images - Unsupported browser detected It also has the "V" piercing the swastika but uses the letter "V" instead of the hand forming a "V".

I still have not found out why this symbol was used. Was it just a patriotic expression? Or did it mean something?

Paul

 

Well I just got an email from a very helpful person. I sent him the link to this thread and the photos and he replied:

So I as I'm flipping through the book to find this photo and find this:

The answer to all of our questions. Theres the plane, the description and a photo of two pilots. One being Parker, who flew B-AZ. Here's a close up if you would like to read the description:




Here is what it reads for the emblem: "A close up of the emblem seen on the cock pit doors of both captured aircraft of 234 squadron; a yellow disc containing a hand making the churchillian "V for Victory"sign, superimposed over a broken Hakenkreuz.


Heres the log recording the take down.



Both of them became POW's after their planes were captured.

Here is Parkers CWGC file:
CWGC :: Casualty Details
Pilot Officer Parker 234
POW:Air Force POWs Paar, H W to Pyne, J C

CAMP: L3, Prisoner #: 476
Stalag Luft III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is Richard Hardy's file:
Air Force POWs Habberley, C E to Hyson, E J

CAMP:L3 Prisoner #: 3595


Could be possible that hes still alive. So that's about it for this thread. Pretty much everything has been answered. I think this is the most time I've ever spent looking for a crash aircraft, heh.

 

Kudos and thanks to Clark for digging up the dope on this crash. And thanks to all the others who contributed to the discussion.

I'll copy a lot of that info and file it with the photo so it will be handy.

There is NO doubt that this is the correct aircraft. The photo in the book is the press release photo I have. One problem remains (there is always another problem). Why is the press release dated April 20, 1942, when the plane crashed August 15, 1940? Were the Germans recycling an old photo for a new news story?

I guess even in 1942 Germany you could not believe everything you read in the press.

Thanks again,
Paul

 

234 Squadron (Madras Presidency) did carry that symbol on their Spitfires.
I was surprised that the combat took place on 15th August 1940 over France, as most combats during this Battle of Britain period were over the South of England or the Channel. To find two aircraft "forced down" is unusual, so maybe there is more of a story still. to come. In case no-one picked it up, the serial for AZ-B was R6985 (from the links provided by Clark).