Panzer Divisions, Afrika Korps, Waffen SS, Blitzkrieg: Why Americans idolize the German war machine

William Astore: American Blitzkrieg Loving the German War Machine to Death

 

I have to say pzjgr, that we Brits were facing down the hordes of communists after ww2 as well, and on our own doorstep....Even at Kruskas door I believe...But we never in the main linked ourselves with the Germans of ww2 era...This is something that intrigues me and I didnt realise just how much the Yanks were succeptable to the German war machine until I joined this forum. Maybe its a distance thing, I just abhore the German war machine of ww2 in all its forms. Not the Germans of today not even a lot of anti nazi germans of ww2 and pre era god knows there were enough of them...many of them the communists you talk of facing down..If only they had not been slaughtered in same way as other german resistance eh?

 

Hi mi amigo, very well said and thats about exactly how I feel about this subject. That and I always admired at how they (the Germans) had some of the collest-looking toys in WWII. I also feel the same way about US, British and Russian stuff too.

 

Sorry guys, the paragraph was not my quote. It was a quote from the article.

 

No prob Ike. Right now im down with a bad cold and full of meds and cant see straight as it is ;-))

 

I think that article exaggerates just a little. I have much respect for the German army but I realize it had its weaknesses. There were some very good divisions especially the panzer divisions but I also realize much of the German army lacked mechanized transportation and that they relied heavily on horses. I even respect some of the Waffen SS divisions more such as the Leibstandarte, Totenkopf, and Das Reich. The thing is those three were very good and well equipped along with the Wiking division while the other twenty some divisions were lacking in many ways. I also think the German air force while it had some good equipment it was too small and lacked long range heavy bombers that it really needed especially on the eastern front. The same deal with the German navy. Some good ships but not nearly enough. It's funny how negative people are in general but when it comes to the German armed forces of WW2 it's the complete opposite. Most look at only the positive aspects regarding that particular topic.

 

Very nice article, it helps to understand the current US obsession with tactics at the expense of having clearly defined strategic goals.

From my position as an "armchair general" it does look like the US military would do better to look closer to home in Mahan's writings on control and denial than in Auftragstaktik for a way to successfully counter "asymmetrical warfare".

But I wouldn't put the blame on poor Clausewitz, if you read him you realize that apart from an unhealty excess of romanticism, with attached sodier mistique, , his writings are a lot more balanced than just reading the quotes would make you think. He was a XIX centuly German so fully immersed in romaticism and we would not be on this forum if we were not at least a bit suffering from the same .

I think the problem the US is facing is that it has to choose between having a "professional military caste" or sticking with the "citizen soldier" concept.

This is a bit far fetched but IMO the close ties with Israel, that is facing an entirely different situation, is a lot more of a problem than a fascination with Clausewitz, both claim to have a "citizen army", but the US hasn't fought an opponent that presented a credible threat to the USA in the last 100 years while Israel is facing a "back to the sea" situation where loosing a single battle may mean obliteration, what works for one is not necessarily good for the other.

 

Doesnt yank staff colleges study Lawrence of Arabias book....I saw that on a recent documentary. God I hope they dont base mideast views and structures and fighting tactics on that one....Please tell me they dont.

 

Hello urgh,

on the other hand, when I saw that news clip with Saddam Hussein firing his Enfield?rifle-Auda Abu Tayi alias Anthony Quinn sprung into my mind

Regards
Kruska

 

I don't recall that video, I remember seeing him firing an automatic pistol once, and an AK on a couple of occassions, but not a rifle like an Enfield or whatever.

I ha always wondered if the bullets coming down on his people caused any concern (what goes up must come down), but then the show Myth Busters sort of proved that a bullet, no matter the caliber or weapon of personal size (no cannons) would be less than lethal after it reached its apogee and began its fall to earth. The velocity dropped off so far that they barely penetrated crusted mud out in the desert where they did the test.

Might give somebody a "start" if it hit them on the noggin, but probably not penetrate a ball cap let alone a turban.

 

You may be correct, I was thinking of straight up only. But that said I wonder at the lethality of a small grain pistol round fired at over a 45 degree angle. That is the optimum angle for distance, but penetration would seem to decline at more than a 45 degree angle. Not saying it is an impossibilty, just wondereing at it is all. Thanks for the link BTW.

 

What I find most interesting is the fact that, according to William Astore's article (William Astore: American Blitzkrieg Loving the German War Machine to Death ), the US Army has a fixation on the tactical level (among it, its focus on "Auftragstaktik") and ignores the importance of strategy too much.
That might show in the shortsightedness it has shown in several campaigns after WW2 (Vietnam, recent Iraq invasion, and perhaps Afghanistan as well). Nevertheless, the US clearly is the only nation capable (and willing) of the role of police agent of the world, and perhaps that hampers its strategic reasoning as well.
Not to say that the US doesn't have any long-term objectives, and doesn't have economic incentives in some or even most of its choices, but I believe its status as acting hyperpower might actually impede its strategic vision, instead of enhancing it!

I'ld like to hear your opinion on that matter.

Furthermore, I think Astore is a bit too harsh on the German warmachine. I still think that "Auftragstaktik" was a good idea, and to have it incorporated in modern armies was the logical thing to do. Also the sort of Knowledge Management system they had built around the early campaigns (Poland, France & the Low Lands), with the "General Stab" doing all the analyses from the reports they received from all ranks about the operations in the field was a great idea. That way they could learn from their mistakes.
My personal opinion is that until 1941, maybe 1942, the German Heer was better performing and organized than any other landarmy, but, IMO, the German war effort was doomed from the beginning, and poor strategic choices made it even worse (although 5/6 years are still a LONG period, not to mention the waste of lives on all sides).

Just my 5 cents...

 

here is a great link to the afrika korp.. AFRIKAKORPS / Afrika Korps: Single Largest Free (500+ Pages & 25,000+ Photo) Rommel and his DAK Reference Website

 

' This site is temporarily unavailable. '

 

thats a shame, so it is, give it a go in a few days time, it's well worth it, pics, info, a superb site to be fair PD...ray.

 

Those little two-twos, especially the long rifle size fired out of a rifle or even carbine length barrel can be very deadly at ranges under 50 feet or so. I have taken many a mule deer in our yard out on the farm with mine.

They used to come up on our lawn, under the mercury vapor light at night an graze on it. When I was low on venison in the freezer, I would just slip out the back door, come around the corner behind one of our shrub rows, and drop one. It happened so quietly that the others would just look over at the one which went down and not even run off until I stepped out and walked toward them.

I imagine getting hit in the back of the head by one, even if it was almost "energy expended", would be less than pleasant.