Todays Germany needs to reconcile?

Since the original thread has been closed - I would like to forward the question of today's Germany having to reconcile and appologize for the Nazis?
Or today's Russians having to reconcile or appologize for some red army guys doings in 1945?

Hello V.B.,

That is were IMHO you and millions of others will never get it right.

First of all, the "modern Germany" after 1949 has NEVER comitted any crimes that it would need to reconcile for.
Between 1945 and 1949 there was an allied council responsible for affairs in regards to post 45 Germany.
The Nuernberg trials were part of a de-Nazification process - with an astonishingly extreme low number of accused persons and hard verdicts.
Unfortunately the wind had changed between the former allies - as such the Western allies had no big interest in convicting and prosecuting former Nazi criminals, profitiers, warmongers and hardline supporters of the Nazi era.
So from 1949 it was the new German government that was faced with taking that responsibility. Which it could barely manage due to the fact that a large % of the new German government, industry and education sector was full with former Nazis.

As such any Tom, Dick and Harry lawyer could and still does walk up once an issue has been found which kind of compromises the government in regards to former Nazis, or todays German institutions having been involved or associated with Nazihistory.

The issue is then settled in $ and cents. This does not exclude sincerely ment appologies by individual government and non-government persons towards victims of the Nazi era.

The vast majority of my generation is aware about how the Nazis came to power and what happened to Germany and the people who were proclaimed by the Nazis as enemies, inferior or unworthy of live.

But why should we (my generation or anyone born after 1935) feel guilty?

Just as today's majority of Americans couldn't be bothered about Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, or some Red Indians who got slaughtered some 140 years ago - or British about colonial issues - or todays Russians about what some guy during his Red Army days did in Germany or wherever.

Why should I expect a 40 year old Russian to appologize for something that happened during Stalin's era? Why should I expect him to appologize or pay some rubels to that German woman that was raped 65 years ago?

History is ment to serve as a lesson of what happened - and not as a tool to reconcile and pay $ and cents by those who were never involved.

Any Nazi found? - tell me and I will contribute for the rope, Why? - because he f**** up my country 65 years ago.

Do I collect Nazi stuff? NO - because I find anything to do with the Nazis as revolting and disgracefull to my country.
Do I find Nazi unforms cool? NO
Do I feel sorry for the victims of the Nazis? YES
Do I appologize for the Nazis? NO, I will leave that up to my father and mother if they should feel that they have a need to do so.

Regards
Kruska

 

Is this aimed at a particular person or can others join in as well with their two cents?

 

Totally agreed, it is a horrible double standard that young Germans have had forced down their throats for the last 30+ years.

 

I was attempting to highlight the fact that the Modern German government has made various attempts to apologize and to meet the past square in the face. This is something that modern German people should be proud of.

The Government of the Russian Republic refuses to do anything on the same scale. Even today, they lionize their leaders of the day as 'war heros'. This is an attitude that tells us quite a lot about how the modern state of Russia is governed. It's still stuck in this Soviet time warp, insisting that it's conduct in WW2 was for the benfit of everyone else but themselves, and consistantly 'airbrushing' the record of events to suit the glorification of the old Soviet regime, rather than facing it squarely and honestly admitting that the Soviet Union was a CORRUPT DICTATORSHIP, bent on exporting Socialism to other countries that niether wanted it, nor needed it.

I was trying to highlight the difference between one government pulling the wool over the collective eyes of the world, and another that was making genuine attempts to exorcise the past, and to live as a member of the community of nations.

Do I collect Nazi memorabilia....NO...I don't rate Soviet era memorabilia as anything collectable either.

Do I find Nazi uniforms to be 'cool'?...NO...ALL military uniforms and regalia, the marching and the pomp, ONLY IMPRESS THE SIMPLE MINDED.

Do I feel sorry for the victims of the Nazis?....YES...as any decent human being would, I empathize with the victims of ALL nations in ALL wars. Politicians make wars, not ordinary people, yet ordinary people have to go off and fight the bloody things, never to return, or return incapacitated, whilst airheads put the politicians that created it all on a pedastal, calling them heros. I say again, the next time we have to go to war, we should put every elected representative of the realm into an arena, with the reps of the other side, and all watch as these @#$%^&* idiots kill and maim and go home as half-men, while we ordinary people watch and decide when it all stops, and who has 'won'.

Do I apologize ?....There is something called COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY, which means that if you are part of "the people", like it or not, you bear responsibility for acts committed in your name, as one of the people. The Australian government expects ME, as an individual and collectively, to say 'sorry' for the current state of Aboriginal people. I personally have done nothing, and yet my tax dollars go in to support these 'traditional' people. Bleeding hearted Liberals are EVERYWHERE.

 

The Soviet/Russian governments have attempted to do things to reconcile their past, how many memorials exist in Russia and ex Soviet states for Axis forces who died in the country? Were pardons and apologies not issues following De-Stalinization? Some members of the Soviet Party may have been corrupt, but it wasn't a party wide policy in most cases, Stalin, Lenin, etc lived very basic lives. Keep in mind, the German government really isn't in a position to say anything but "sorry". If someone asks for compensation 99.9% of the time they will get their way as an act of defiance could be misinterpreted. It's also a reason why veterans in Germany both past and present are such a "hot button topic", if the government tries to glorify them the world says they are returning to their war time roots, if they do nothing the world calls them useless.

As for whether people needed Communism, the masses needed something better and Communism was something that appealed to them. The oppressed living under Batista, the Chinese farmers living under foreign occupation, etc, they all wanted something better. If future leaders took the country in a different direction to further their own means that is an issue with them and most of the time should differ from the original goal, if that made sense.

 

Volga Boatman;

This is were I do not agree, and I am not proud for that.

It is those Nazi F**** who need to appologize and be placed on trial, and not a government and its people which weren't involved.

This is the part I really can't accept - Collective Responsibility - what a bull...t. Myself and all born after 1935 -even 1930 are not part of the people(Nazis) we are part of the German people but not of the Nazis - and Nazis are not Germans or vis versa. There are also Italian, Dutch, Austrian, Belgium, French, etc,etc Nazis. Nazis are people with a certain believe not passport - unfortunatly most Nazis did however carry a German passport.

Aboriginal people? well yes - the Australians do carry a Collective Responsibility, Why?
1. Your government from day 1 till today is based on the same laws and constitution. Nazi Germany and Todays Germany are totally different in that regard.
2. Since day one your democratically leagalized government has committed wrongdoings against the Aborigins.
3. These wrongdoings were not committed by a "specific-political" group but by the Australians and their democratic elected government in general.
4. yes, maybe "you" did not act wrong against the Aborigins, but your fellow countryman did in accordance to Point 1,2 and 3. and that is what makes it a Collective Responsibility.

Today's Germany does not track back its laws and constitution to Nazi Germany, neither does todays Italy's or Spain's government track back to Facism.

Regards
Kruska

 

Socialism was shoved down the troats of ordinary people.

I'm not being catty, but you are showing me that the topic is not exactly 'in the bag' when you refer to Communism...

Small lecture...(I have delivered this one before)

COMMUNISM does not exist. It is a Socialist IDEAL (Utopian) that Socialist governments work toward.

COMMUNISM is the 'perfect' state...no poverty, no social inequality, classless, no conflict.
No Socialist state had EVER achieved this Utopian ideal, nor will they ever. Until you can eliminate such basic human emotions as greed, ignorance and lust etc, the perfect state will always remain out of reach.
Socialism is fine in principle, in practice it leads inexorably to dictatorship....of the bourgeoise, of the proletariat. There are no revolutionaries, only aristocrats changing place with the intelligentsia and bourgeoise. The proletariat, the majority of us poor slobs, stay exactly as we are.

Russia has sold us this Marxist/Leininism for far too long. They can't make it work, so why saddle us with it? As for their politicans, they are still propagating the same old barf inducing CRAP we have been hearing since 1917.

STUFF SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM.....Conduct a good old fashioned vote on it World wide, and see just how many people understand it, let alone wish this flawed doctrine to live under. It's failed in every state that it's been imposed in, proving that "intellectuals" like Marx/Engels and Lenin were just power playing tossers, trying to sit on their arses for a living instead of getting out there and actually working as the rest of us do.

Nuff said about Socialism. It's for semi-educated idealists with stars in their eyes about equality and world peace.

 

Thanks for calling me young , and those born after 1935 are meanwhile youngsters dating 75 years of age.

Time is flying by eh ? - just this Nazi s*** doesn't want to.

Regards
Kruska

 

Hello V.B.,

I think everyone has understood this on this planet - besides one country - North Korea, otherwise besides using the term or title Communism, I wouldn't know a single country or government that still lives in the spirit of communism.

Regards
Kruska

 

I live in a flat with two familys on the ground floor. Day and night, these people, drink, fight, throw rubbish about....all have no job and no private ncome except a royalty & social security AND housing all provided by my tax dollars.

The state these people are in is due entirely to their inability to GE UP OFF THEIR ARSES AND EARN A LIVING. TO STOP ABUSING THEMSELVES WITH ALCOHOL.

We have no mass murders or camps on our governments record, so don't even think about comparisons. I don't classify these people as SUBHUMANS, nor do I attempt to stop inter-racial marriage, nor prevent them from owning businesses.

Its about time that EUROPEANS face up to the consequences of their actions between 1904 and 1945. Our country, and my wife's country of New Zealand, sent troops and material to help you idiots solve YOUR problems...supporting the "Mother Country" and all that. After seeing the pure BARBARISM perpetrated between those two dates, you presume to tell us here how to run our own problems?

I have a European passport, (English actually), and my family is full of soldiers that went off to fight in these European wars. Whats happening in Oz, here, is not even in the same league.

So, how bout' a quick apology from the perpetrators of all this misery? You can't even achieve that without moans and groans! Let alone that you might have to pay for it....think about the people from this side of the globe alone that had to PAY because Europe couldn't sort it's own problems out without dragging in the rest of us poor slobs...and all we want is an apology? NOT MUCH TO ASK...

Too much, it seems.

 

However hurting ww2 has been to europe , we have to look on . Yesterdays enemies are todays allies in a new europe with a new task too delicate to be split by our historic pasts for ever. With the past generations still alive it wasnt possible to unite as we should do further in the future , but now 65 years on the general opinion is changing slowly.

Europe as a collective has become a reality now and yes,its people should always remember what happened and how it came to that ..but we cant afford to be divided in victors and victims if we want to make a united europe a succes .
At some point one has to say we bury the past as its blocking a planned further unity.. Europe is now developed sofar its getting very important in the near future to take barriers away instead of maintaining them .
Within europe the voice for a united rememberance is growing stronger as a step in that direction , theres talks in Holland for instance for some years to accept german delegations where i as a younger generation person think we should say yes to .
The idea the younger german or russian generations should apologize for another generations deeds is not a good one ..it isnt their responsibility ,can only say many will appreciate it when they do but if thats not enough then the judgement is too severe .
All is compromise in a way ..let us now make it happen in a better way and hope our generations make use of all the lessons left to us by our forefathers .
VB , salute to you too . Do not think Aussi and NZ contributions went unnoticed in Europe , they gave a lot ,more than asked for and giving a new home to many Europeans afterwards too .. but i'm glad europe has at least a bit 'socialist solidarity 'views on some issues. If that means supporting some drunks like your neighbours so be it .Any gouvernment finding a good balance between a socialist care system and active capitalism will be a winner .

 

Well Konrad Adenauer, Ludwig Ehrhard, Georg Kiesinger, Willy Brandt, Helmut Schmidt, and those born after 1930, Helmut Kohl, and Schroeder and Merkel-they all did, plus with all the billions given away earned by those who simply were not involved.

Regards
Kruska

 

I agree on the socialism/communism thing, but for the masses Communism is the same thing so I guess I got caught in the lie for a bit.

"Russia" sold "you" nothing, Lenin especially was experimenting with the government system, Russia was the first nation to follow the principle and they were tweaking it in a way that would be successful for them. No government system can ever transfer over to a nation 1:1, changes have to be made as it is a case by case system.

You seem very far removed from how people felt, Lenin was to an entire generation a hero, someone who helped put bread on the table for millions, pushed for an end to racism especially antisemitism, social equality, etc. He did do a few unfavorable things too. Lenin was far from a "bum", his revolution was not fought with words but violence, Lenin was not standing in the back either but alongside his men. He was exiled from Russia many times yet fought his way back. Why? Because the Russian masses believed in him and his cause, he wanted to help the people because he believed it was the right thing to do. Revolution aside, Lenin was an educated lawyer and at one point a teacher if I recall correctly, he was pretty gifted when it came to a mental capacity, after his death weren't the ridges on his brain examined to "find a link"?

As an aside, just as their has been no true Communist state there has been no true free market state either.

I personally find all government systems to have their pros and cons, I think I like a mixed economy the best since we get the best of both worlds.

Edit: In the middle of this discussion, I forgot to give my two cents!

Germany has already done enough to reconcile for what had happened during the war, both wars in fact. The German people in their own way have also done a lot, be it something big like starting a charity fund for those displaced or simply attempting to heal wounds with those they fought on "the other side". The turn around times for something of that stuff was amazingly quick, I think in 50 years Germany got more done in terms of victim compensations, memorials, etc than most nations have to this day for World War 2.

I wouldn't say the "west" has no interest in convicting war criminals, after the war ended many Germans moved to North America as there was little left for them in Germany and they simply fell in love with North America or heard good things about it from people who were "stationed" there. For all the good Germans that came along you also had your bad, both the Canadian and American governments have/are working on extraditions for suspected criminals. You can't get very far in a trial if you can't get your hands on the accused!

I think Germany (the government specifically, society too I guess) needs to look internally and begin to reconcile towards its own people, for World War I, there are thousands of veterans seeking pardons (the estates I guess) since they were killed for desertion, a few WW2 vets got this but so far nothing for WW1. The cases are much more complex than simple desertion (German high command ordered some pretty messed up stuff, like chaining soldiers to machine gun nests so they couldn't retreat) and should be reanalyzed.

Speaking of which, Germany's last World War 1 veteran didn't even get an decent report in the newspaper let alone something from the government. France's last World War 1 veteran who died a week before Germany's got a national day of mourning!

And something that's been beaten to death before on this forum is the general attitudes towards Wehrmacht and some Waffen S.S. members.

Maybe the German government can reconcile by educating? The way the Nazi's obtained power, the methods they used, etc are all controversial topics, to most people they were voted in because Germany fell in love with them. In reality it is a very complex topic that should be touched on. Perhaps it can help put the "all Germans are Nazi's" debate to rest, kinda. There are a few goodies in the bag that may also strike a blow to Neo Nazism. We are often taught that such things happened, but we are rarely thought of how they were allowed to. Both wars are still in living memory has we have people both civillian and veteran still alive from that time period, it makes this issue a bit more complex and time sensitive.

 

Mehar .. i look an awfull lot of german TV . The germans do a lot of public education about the politic and economic origins . The documentaries shown are very honest and nothing is withheld ..I bet an average German child can tell you a lot more about their history than the average dutch child the same age .On any kids school you'll not find one kid there telling you hitler was a baseball coach like many university students do in many other countries ..I admire their education system a lot and could only wish our kids were taught so thorough here ...

 

one thing I like to point out... people are quick to stereotype the Germans as Nazis in that time frame. Not every German believed in Nazi idealogies .. A German had two options in those times, either go to war or die in some concentration camp with your family and be classified as a traitor to your country. which would you choose in those times? What would you risk to keep your family safe? Germany too was a victim of Nazism. Many would die in wars , be raped, and be killed in bombings, or die in camps because of their Nazi Government, and Nazi goons.

Many are quick to say the Germans of that era were all nazis..

It's time the world allow the German people to move on. it's not fair to put the burdon on this generation to feel guilty for something that happened many years ago. i think German people hold the responsibility to never forget what happened and never allow it to ever happen again, anywhere in the world.

 

I haven't talked to very many new generation Germans about the war but the 1 or 2 I did talk to about the matter weren't the greatest examples. Outside of Germany though I know things are much different. To talk to the new generation about this stuff I think a high budget movie or game done right is what people need, books just don't do it anymore. The least it can make people do is wonder or even question what they know.

 

Hello Mehar,

I don't think that there is much wrong with the German government in it's approach to educate on the Nazi era.
Exept for some dumb buds, 99% of the German population were taught about what happened and how it happened.

However the younger generation (20 and less) is more into Wolfenstein and chat lines. Most of them don't read books on history or are keen to know about history.
If you mention the topic, the usual "sad" reaction you get to hear is: Hitler!? oh yeah I know - we killed all the Jews and lost the war.

Germany has simply been overfed with this 12 year history run down. Imagine the whole world would be running war movies and topics from the Vietnamese point of view since 1973.

Do you believe that an American would still be willing to listen? - I mean come on about half the country already draws its guns when someone from outside brings in the terms Bush and IraqII. And this is just barely 7 years now - with the US still being involved in wars.

The danger I see is that a continuation of pointing with Nazi topics at Germany will cause a counterreaction and those Neo dick heads are just waiting to give their point of view.

Look at former East Germany, it is not just the economic situation that makes them go towards the right. No - during communism times they were never confronted in that manner - they were proud to be Germans - much more proud then those West Germans who already got used to dig in their heads.

Germany has a very stable democratic system - we are firmly embedded in the EU - no way that Germany could revert to a Nazi or Nazi like system. So leave the topic to the schoolbooks or Forums such as this and hopefully the SUN and alike will find other salespusher headlines then Nazis are....,same would go for these endless WWII warmovies.

Where are the decent warmovies about the Falklands or French Indochina, Algeria, Spanish Marocco, Portugal/Angola, Mosambique, Egypt/Israel, Iran/Iraq, Turkey/Greece etc. etc - not interesting enough? why?

We are all humans, and if you keep pressuring a child for 10 years - eat chocolate, eat chocolate, eat chocolate - well guess what he is going to go for sooner or later? He 's going to throw that chocolate bar at you.

Regards
Kruska

 

Hello Mehar,

in regards to your questions.
Answer:

1. is there any other topic in conjunction with Germany other then Nazis?
2. Hitler and his gang made us become murderers and robbed us of our childhood and youth - citing my father.

Regards
Kruska

 

I think you'll find many younger people arent eager to jump into a war discussion , its mosttimes with older people the subject of ww2 comes up.
Been over in germany several times and especially on campings etc its easy to get into contact with families . Although one doesnt start talking about it easy people asked me plenty of times out of interesse how I experienced their country and how they look at mine etc and a deeper conversation comes up quickly . Most agreed on the end of war was a liberation to them too and that they are gratefull about how germany was able to recover after ww2 .
Younger generations do feel a bit pointed at for things they didnt commit and therefor are a bit war-tired wich i cant blame them for . But when conversating with youth its remarkable how well underbuild their vision is ,i think theyre better aware than most countries youth . If the world fears a new nazism , than i think its better to look at whats happening in some other euro countries including mine .
Germany is not on its own in the modern nazism ,its a euro thing happening in a broader frame as germany's history alone.
Holland has a different history and its happening all the same here too Krusk ..and in Belgium,France, Poland ..even England . Your youth may be tired , ours is just plain stupid !