Arnhem... Two lifts?

Let's see, it was the American 101st, 17th, and 82nd, the British 1st 6th, a air transport infantry division and the Polish Parachute Brigade. There were so many, could the fact that there weren't enough transports available to the Allies played a role in the failure of Market Garden?

 

The American 17th and British 6th Airborne were not used in Market Garden.

The 6th were only just out of the line after heavy fighting in NOrmandy...

Yes they did know the 9th and 10th were there. These two units had taken a severe mauling in Normandy.

There was not enough planes... Hence the need for 2 lifts...

 

Sorry, it was the 6th Parachute Regiment. Plus, the Germans captured the plans for 101st's participation in Market-Garden from a downed glider near Student's HQ. Then, later on in the capaign, the Dutch Underground found it harder to secure reliable intel because the Germans were constantly moving.

 

No such unit.

Peter

 

Possibly sma means 4 Para...?

 

I'm really sticking my neck out here but; say XXX corps gets there on schedule.How were they to be re-supplied,air or by the same road?Especially if they had to slug it out with German armor.

 

For some reason I thought the U.S. 17th and the British 6th Airborne Divisions were dropped, oh well. But I think the Allies could have succeeded if all the forces had been dropped at once. Initially, they did catch the Germans off-guard and were able to take Eindhoven, and the British did take the bridge they were assigned to take. In all, if the entire force had made it to their DZ's intact, and there had been better communication between the armor and the airborne (there were some discrepencies on the frequency the Allies were to use for the Airborne commanders to communicate with the Armored commanders), the Allies might have pulled it off. The key thing i think that needed to happen was more coodination between the Armored and the Airborne. They weren't sycronized as well as they had hoped, which gave the Germans time to react.
As for the XXX Corps:
The Allies at first had the advantage over the Germans because of the fact that they could bring in supplies and reinforcement via C-47's. The XXX Corps probably would have been resupplied that way. As for whether or not they could have put up with German armor, I have no idea.

[ 30. September 2004, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: silentmidgetassasin ]

 

Now, another possibility is that the attack is staged differently.

What if XXX Corps initiates their attack about 24 to 36 hours ahead of the drops? The Germans react to the offensive by moving reserves south to counter XXX Corps. With this movement of most of the reserves out of the Arnheim area the Allies now drop their original schedule.
The dilemma for the Germans is now their units are locked into combat with XXX Corps and their supply lines are now severed. They now have to attempt to disengage the British in the South and counter attack the paratroops in their rear that have had more time to get on their objectives and dig in.
With this scenario if the German crust defense against XXX Corps fails the Germans are finished. They now have to fall back through the paras rather than being able to 'see' the entire offensive unfold in the first day and react to it.

 

That's an interesting scenario TA - in Oosterbeek two weeks ago I spoke with a veteran of XXX Corps who opined that 'we should have started three days earlier' ; the Airborne Divisions should have dropped at the bridges immediately prior to the Armoured forces' arrival.....

 

A possible result of this could be the drawing of 9th and 10th SS to defend a XXX corps attack. But whats to say that the attack by XXX corps would not be stopped on the single road and the airborne force effectively cut-off and facing German re-enforcements?

Interesting idea though... What about launching the airborne divisions in stages as the advance of XXX corps advanced? Dropping whole divisions to take the bridges infront of XXX corps advance as they near them. Rather like Varsity. Whether the technological level exists in '44 to co-ordinate this is debatable... Although this would involve drops onto areas of active German troops but could this have been overcome by TAC???

 

I do like the idea. I don´t recall just now where the Germans had decided to keep their main line of defence so I´m not totally sure they would send their reserves to battle or would they retreat and blow up the bridges as they moved back. But if the Germans would react that way as mentioned in your reply it definitely sounds the allied would have had a golden opportunity to succeed 100%.

 

Now let's add another twist. After XXX Corps attacks for 24 - 36 hours the airborne drops are made across the rear of the German front at about the depth of the 101st drops effectively cutting the German rear off instead of dropping in a daisy chain in an attempt to take the bridges.
The Germans are now faced with a situation similar to Falaise or Normandy. They are effectively surrounded and the paras are not far from relief on the ground.
If the majority of German forces in the area were successfully drawn forward to prevent a British breakthrough they are now trapped and have to fight their way out of the pocket through the paratroops. This could have severly disrupted the orgainzed resistance along with causing major equipment losses to the Germans. If reasonably successful, the Allies now face a retreating, disorgainzed and, poorly equipped enemy once again. The Germans likely couldn't have stopped the resulting advance. So the Germans blow a bridge here or there. The Allies have so much bridging equipment it really would have made little difference. Comments?

 

This scenario is based on what we know now - not the context at the time. SHAEF were highly (over)confident that German forces were much weaker than expected. Don't forget that the plan was for XXX Corps to be across Arnhem bridge by 36 hours.

Also, bridging the canal at Son was one thing - bridging the Rhine at Arnhem and - especially - Nijmegen was quite another. The Waal is very wide and fast-flowing and would have needed a great amount of heavy bridging equipment plus time and - both ends would have needed to be very secure.

 

had they secured the ferry at driel, commanded the heights behind it (cant remember the name), they could have ferried over troops to the south side of the arnhem bridge, or later on, ferry over troops to the preimiter. Also, if communications were better, in the arnhem area, things may of being diferent.

As for dropping in the 6th and 17th, i dont think they had enough planes, and the weather was bad over england during the operation (fog) so they couldnt have dropped them in with the ones they had.

 

You're right about the Driel passenger ferry, figjam. This, and the Westerbouwing heights, seems to have been totally overlooked by the planners. Frost's men passed within about 150 yards of the ferry on the afternoon of the 17th.

Either Allied intelligence was unaware of the existence of ferry and heights, or, again, they simply weren't expecting to need to make use of these features because, of course, there weren't going to be many Germans around....

( PS : The ferry still runs, and the Westerbouwing still offers an amazing panoramic view of the battlefield. On a good day, you can clearly see the Arnhem rail and road bridges, plus the Nijmegen bridges and power station )

 

the british should have trusted the underground a bit more, like the americans did (the yanks even equipped them), but i can understand why they didnt, seeing what happened with the french and begium underground. Though, the dutch underground was better orginised than the french and belgium

 

What?

The Dutch resistance was not trusted as it had been extensively penetrated by Gestapo and SD agents. This led them to mistrust and discount the infomation from them during 1944.

The Americans were just as mistrusting of Dutch resistance. Both the British and Americans used Dutch soldiers as guides.

 

My knowledge in this area is very limited - wasn't it 'Operation Nordpol', or something similar - large-scale German penetration of the Dutch underground.

Dutch Resistance, although it most certainly existed, operated under much more difficult conditions than the Resistance in France. No mountains to hide in, or large tracts of wooded/sparsely-inhabited countryside.....

 

im not that well informed about the resistance either, most of my info is from Cornelius Ryans "a bridge too far" (about the dutch underground). I should read up on the resistance before i make another statement like that one, sorry lads

 

Lets not forget the large number of Dutch who fought for the Germans...