Had Truman refused to let Hirohito off the hook?

If there is already a thread on this my bad but I did a search.

Has there been any discussion that anyone is aware of about how long Japan would have held out if we had insisted on putting Hirohito on trial for war crimes?

Would we have eventually been forced to invade, or would we just have continued to bomb and blockade them and let the Russians continue the land war?

Or is it the general concensus that we allowed the concession on Hirohito to keep Russia from gaining significant territories and there was no chance on insisting on Hirohito's head?

I've always thought he got off with his life and shouldn't have.

 

Well, the whole issue of Hirohito is a tangled can of snakes, and difficult to judge from not only a "western mindset", but one done through the lens of hindsight. The Imperial Japanese Army and Navy had held veto power over the formation of cabinets since 1900,and it must be remembered that from the 1930s on, the military clique held and controlled almost all political power in Japan, and pursued policies that eventually led Japan to launch the second Sino-Japanese War as well as WW2.

That said, primary sources, such as a General Sugiyama's memos and the diaries of both Kido and Konoe, describe in detail the "informal meetings" Hirohito had with his chiefs of staff and ministers.

These documents show that the Emperor was kept informed of most if not all main military operations and that he frequently questioned his senior staff, asking for (but not demanding) changes. This is a position which Herbert Bix, in his book Hirohito And The Making of Modern Japan, truly expands upon.

There were three ideas circulating around D.C. as to Japanese "responsibility" and as to what should be done with Hirohito post war. The first option was the one put forward by the former ambassador to Japan; Joseph Grew, as well as Hugh Burton, and Joseph Ballentine (the Asia scholars) in America proper. This idea was supported by Gen. MacArthur; i.e. retain the Emperor but make him subservient to the Supreme Commander Allied Powers (SCAP). That was to be MacArthur eventually, but when put forward who was to be the SCAP not a known certainty.

The second was to abolish the Chrysanthemum throne completely, and form completely secular and politically democratic society. This was rejected as being too foreign to the Japanese culture to be enforced from without. If it occurred from inside, that was all well and good, but a totally new version of democracy has ever been successfully imposed on an unwilling civilization (to this day).

The third option was to force Hirohito to abdicate, be tried for his complicity in the war, and be replaced by one of his many brothers in a constitutional monarchy modeled on the British system. (see Japan Diary, W. Sloane p. 340)

This third option was seen as the least advantageous, and in the words of MacArthur himself, the Japanese would see this as:

"the greatest betrayal in their history, and hatreds and resentments engendered by this thought will unquestionably last for all measurable time. A vendetta for revenge will thereby be initiated whose cycle may well not be completed in centuries, if ever." (later writing that)… "and a condition of underground chaos and disorder amounting to guerrilla warfare in the mountains and outlying regions result."

MacArthur continues with this. "I believe all hope of introducing modern democratic methods would disappear, and that when military control finally ceased some form of intense regimentation probably along Communist lines would arise for the masses."

Only the first option seemed to offer the ability to peacefully occupy Japan, and halt the communist influence which might be "fermenting" in the background. The second option was unrealistic, and the third option would be akin to putting the spirtiual son of the goddess of Shintoism on trial. That was sure to cause internal unrest which may never be able to be contained. Even though Shintoism was removed from the "official religion" status, and government funding ceased, it wasn’t really banned.

USA then directed reforms which included the release of all political prisoners, the legalization of most political parties, including the Communist Party, and pro-union legislation (the Trade Union Law, passed December 1945). The Peace Preservation Law (1925) under which thousands of leftist critics of the government had been arrested, imprisoned or executed, was scrapped. The Special Higher Police force was abolished, and many of its former leaders put on trial. The vote was granted to women, and the US began a drive to break up the huge zaibatsu corporations and launched an agrarian reform act which would abolish the landlord class in the countryside. And the rising-sun battle-flag was prohibited. T

The US inspired constitution would abolish laws which discriminated against women, reform the criminal, and civil laws and decentralize the police and impose a provision which committed Japan to democracy, regular elections, and explicitly forbade Japan from resorting to warfare to solve international disputes.

And the US began to purge members of the old regime and elite, and would eventually prohibit 200,000 specific individuals from holding public office in the future. Some other men who did eventually hold office were an embarrassment, but they only came to office after the US had ended its occupation of Japan in 1952. The ordinary Japanese embraced the reforms, and in the Diet elections of April 1946, 95% of the candidates had never held office before, and 39 women were elected. The treaty that led to US withdrawal in 1952 confirmed the loss of all territories seized by Japan in the 20th century.

The US was to maintain bases in Japan, and Japan began being strongly aligned as a Cold War ally of America. In the final years of occupation America had shifted from reform to reconstruction. With this Japan had been substantially re-shaped, and in my opinion for the better. Of course all of this is just my take on the situation.

As to your other questions, you might find the answers in these two older threads:

http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-general/35066-has-atom-bomb-saved-lives.html

and this one as well:

http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-general/23889-dropping-atomic-bombs-saved-lives.html

 

Sorry I am a bit confused in regards to your statements/questions.

Since the USA did not aquitt to Japanese demands in regards to Hirohito - the Japanese as such refused to surrender, the US dropped two A-bombs - after that Japan surrendered - Hirohito or no Hirohito

The big "mental jerk off" is that, after Japan had surrendered, that the Americans agreed to the original Japanese demands in regards to Hirohito

Regards
Kruska

 

This is not quite right, Hirohito was allowed to remain on the throne as a "place marker", not the divine sovereign he had been before the surrender. He was now not only forced to acknoledge that he was NOT the divine son of the Goddess of the Sun, but was subservient to the SCAP, who ended up being MacArthur. The original demands for the Emperor were that he would retain his "sovereign" powers, over all of Japan, and They (the Japanese) would conduct any trials for "war crimes". The allies had tried that approach before, right after WW1, and it was such a farce that it was NOT going to be an option this time.

Unconditional surrender doesn't mean "no terms", it means "accept the terms we dictate or condinue the war". People tend to forget that. Both Germany and Italy also got "terms", and they had to take them as dictated, like 'em or not.

 

You are correct in that, but it doesn't alter the fact that Hirohito was the same diviness to the Japanese after the war as he had been before. The most important demand of the Japanese was met - being no prosecution against the Emperor.

Regards
Kruska

 

Well yes and no, Shinto was not outlawed, but it was removed as the official and government sponsered religion of the state, and the other is incorrect de jure, but not de facto. The Japanese did not demand that he not be tried, that isn't in the documents at all, not in their demands nor in our replies. The Japanese probably did still revere Hirohito as a god, but it was no longer an official policy, see what I mean?

And if you read all three options which were being discussed before the surrender you will see that Hirohito was felt (correctly) to be the key to a relatively peaceful occupation. I posted them in my first reply above.

The Japanese first attempted to keep the Emperor in all his former glory. Here is the offer made and rejected by the Americans on August 10th included this portion:

"The Japanese Government are ready to accept the terms enumerated in the joint declaration which was issued at Potsdam on July 26th, 1945 by the heads of the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, and China, and later subscribed by the Soviet Government, with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler. (emphasis mine)
　
See:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/450810a.html

To which Secretary of State Brynes replied the following day with this:

"With regard to the Japanese Government's message accepting the terms of the Potsdam proclamation but containing the statement, 'with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a sovereign ruler,' our position is as follows:

"From the moment of surrender the authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate the surrender terms. (emphasis mine)

"The Emperor will be required to authorize and ensure the signature by the Government of Japan and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters of the surrender terms necessary to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration, and shall issue his commands to all the Japanese military, naval and air authorities and to all the forces under their control wherever located to cease active operations and to surrender their arms, and to issue such other orders as the Supreme Commander may require to give effect to the surrender terms.
See:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1945/450811a.html

Before then they had even proposed that while they would surrender all the territory they had conquered, they would NOT turn over their weapons to the allied powers, they would NOT allow any occupation troops on Japan proper, and they would NOT allow anyone but Japanese to try their military personnel.

These were some of the terms the Japanese tried to put forwad through the Soviets. Neither Molotov let alone Stalin would even give them an audience for that purpose. They were still using the Purple diplomatic code, and the US was reading all the exchanges between the Japanese reprentative in Moscow (Prince Sato), and the leaders in Tokyo (Togo). Stalin informed Truman of the attempt, Truman already knew of it, but wrote in his diary that he was reassurred by Stalin telling him in person of the exchanges.

Here is a link to those telegrams between Tokyo and Moscow:

http://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/library/correspondence/togo-sato/corr_togo-sato.htm

Sorry I forgot to include them the first time I hit "post"!

 

Clint,
the everturning disc about A-bomb and Hirohito and Japans surrender,always comes back to the sole issue of retaining the Japanese Emperor. The term retaining now can be discussed and twisted and turned for ever just as well.

My opinion is that Hirohito himself (making use of his diplomats and government officials) clearly wanted to avoid ending up as a war criminal (which IMO he was). As such it wouldn't have been wise for him to pinpoint his problem solely by concentrating his demands on not being procecuted.

The term or phrase: "prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a sovereign ruler" automatically included not being procecuted without singularily stressing that point.

Hirohito and his advisors played well and managed to convience McArthur that Japan needed an "untouched" Emperor to ensure the rebuilding of Japan and used McArthurs own "arrogance and need for self display" in order to make Hirohito becoame the "Pacifist Tenno".

Everything worked well for the war criminal Hirohito - after his death he was even honered with the Title "Showa" the name of his ruling era which had caused 25-30 million dead.

Regards
Kruska

 

Kruska you can read it that way if you like, I don't. And the options for the Emeperor had been discussed long before Truman took the office, and there were three posibilities. And MacArthur wasn't in on the making of them, there were three ideas circulating around D.C. as to Japanese "responsibility" and as to what should be done with Hirohito post war. The first option was the one put forward by the former ambassador to Japan; Joseph Grew, as well as Hugh Burton, and Joseph Ballentine (the Asia scholars) in America proper.

This idea was supported by Gen. MacArthur when it was explained to him, he had spent a great deal of time in the Far East and he understood the "power" of the throne to the Japanese people; i.e. retain the Emperor but make him subservient to the Supreme Commander Allied Powers (SCAP). That was to be MacArthur eventually, but when put forward who was to be the SCAP not a known certainty.

The second was to abolish the Chrysanthemum throne completely, and form completely secular and politically democratic society. This was rejected as being too foreign to the Japanese culture to be enforced from without. If it occurred from inside, that was all well and good, but a totally new version of democracy has ever been successfully imposed on an unwilling civilization (to this day).

The third option was to force Hirohito to abdicate, be tried for his complicity in the war, and be replaced by one of his many brothers in a constitutional monarchy modeled on the British system. (see Japan Diary, W. Sloane p. 340)

This third option was seen as the least advantageous, and in the words of MacArthur himself, the Japanese would see this as:

"the greatest betrayal in their history, and hatreds and resentments engendered by this thought will unquestionably last for all measurable time. A vendetta for revenge will thereby be initiated whose cycle may well not be completed in centuries, if ever." (later writing that)… "and a condition of underground chaos and disorder amounting to guerrilla warfare in the mountains and outlying regions result."

MacArthur continues with this. "I believe all hope of introducing modern democratic methods would disappear, and that when military control finally ceased some form of intense regimentation probably along Communist lines would arise for the masses."

Only the first option seemed to offer the ability to peacefully occupy Japan, and halt the communist influence which might be "fermenting" in the background. The second option was unrealistic, and the third option would be akin to putting the spirtiual son of the goddess of Shintoism on trial. That was sure to cause internal unrest which may never be able to be contained. Even though Shintoism was removed from the "official religion" status, and government funding ceased, it wasn’t really banned.

I posted this in my first reply, just re-posted it in case you missed it.
Don't neglect the power of the Japanese religion, Shinto, whih taught that the emperor is the descendant of the Sun Goddess Amaterasu. As such in 1945 he was a living god and could, according to the Shinto religion control nature such as the power of the sun. Shintoism further teaches that the emperor has a duty to bring all the peoples of the world under the rule of Amaterasu a sun goddess whose power is the power of the sun itself.

This bomb, using the "basic power of the universe" made Hirohito, as her son, a fake and thus showed him and the others in the war cabinet to be without the divine mandate of the goddess. That the hated enemy now had her mandate was more than just a shock to the average Japanese; it in affect destroyed their world view and their very view of themselves as Japanese.

The Japanese would have fought the allies until they were all dead or we had gone back to the US and given up, for fighting men is easy. But how does one fight a goddess? Japan and her people, still deeply religious, believed in the goddess's mandate from heaven, they had no choice but to surrender. The Japanese knew better than to fight with nature, and this was clearly a force of nature.

They could fight people who invaded, fires, bullets, and the impact of conventional bombing. They could not and never did fight nature, not tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, or volcanic eruptions. The Soviet entry in to the war between the two atomic explosions, helped make the decision more urgent; but as Hideki Tojo's diary states the atomic bombs killed the god and goddess of Japan and thus forced the emperor to surrender his nation.

But putting Hirohito on trial as a "war criminal" would have been the equivalent to putting Jesus on trial for the Christian mindset. We all know how well that worked out for the Romans.

 

Sorry I can't share your believe or interpretation of Japan or Shintoism at all - so as to say we are in total dissagreement

(many) of the Christians in 1945 (some until today) believe that the Pope is God's representative on earth and as such unfailable in his verdicts.

No Christian however believed that God's representative could stop a war or inflict heavenly damage onto the enemies army - neither did the Japanese.

It is not Hirohito that controls the sun, wind the sea, etc. but Kamis who as individual Kamis are tied to natural forces.
The Kami, Susanoo-no-mikoto, for example is the sea and storms god, Sarutahiko Okami is the kami of earth.

Well that would have been Susanoo's and Sarutahiko's job. And the guy in charge to smash the Americans would have been Hachiman, the Kami of war.

Tojo's statement is absolutley out of context and a total missinterpretation IMHO.

Japans military used the peoples obedience towards the Emperor, to make them do whatever they (military leaders) wanted them to do.
With Hirohito willing to surrender - they (the militarists) lost their joker towards the population to continue the war as such.

Therefore Tojo's statement: The atomic bombs killed the god and goddess of Japan - meaning: it killed Hirohito's will to continue the war -and thus forced the emperor to surrender his nation.

Shinto means = "The way of the Gods"
"Shinto gods" are called Kami. They are sacred spirits which take the form of things and concepts important to life, such as wind, rain, mountains, trees, rivers and fertility.

Shintoism does not teach that the Tenno is the decendent of Amaterasu. It was the first Japanese Emperor Jimmu who declared himself as such and all others followed that claim.

Shintoism teaches no such thing. It was Tanaka Chigaku a member of the Nichiren Buddhism sect - who gobbled it up from the Nihon Shoki (the second oldest book of classical Japanese history) and was popularized in a speech by Fumimaro Konoe in 1940.

There are Kamis and principal Kamis in Shintoism. Amaterasu Omikami, the sun goddess is one of the principal Kamis and the Tenno is to be a relative or offspring of the Kami Amaterasu and as such a living diety, all Tenno's "Emperors" trade their line back to Amaterasu.

And all Shintoists have prayed to their Tenno in regards to being an offspring to Amaterasu - So the Japanese prayed to two shrines - One is that of the devine Emperor being an offspring to Amaterasu and one shrine is that of Amaterasu herself.

So if you wan't to follow on your A-bomb logic, then yes the Atombomb certainly defeated Hirohito but certainly not Amaterasu. Such as Jesus died but not his father.

Or in other words, the A-bomb defeated Jesus but not God. And Jesus was not put on trial, requested by the Romans but by the Jews and they demanded cruxification and not the Romans.

You are corrrect that the Roman empire crumbled amongst other reasons due to the christians, but not because of Pilatus - who washed his hands, or due to the fact that he was crucified on Roman territory under Roman law.

Regards
Kruska

 

Hirohito EXPECTED to be tried as a war criminal, and expected at the very least to be imprisoned and quite possibly executed. He expected that from the moment he knew Japan couldn't win the war. When he called on MacArthur for a meeting (Because Mac wasn't going to call to meet HIM) he expected to be brought out in cuffs. Mac knew that any sort of action taken against the Emperor would likely result in an uprising, and as the head of a newly in place army of occupation, he wasn't willing to take that chance. So like Clint stated above, Shinto wasn't outlawed but Mac made it damn well clear that HE was the HGIC (Head General In Charge) and that things were going to run his way. Hirohito may have been charged as a minimal war criminal but being that he had little to nothing to do with day to day operations of the war, Mac knew it wasn't worth the risk.