Finnish concentration camps in Karelia

Unfortunately it is often the civilians who suffer most...

 

Well, just in case...no one is denying the historical fact that the Russian population of Eastern Karelia (not the original inhabitants of the area) were concentrated in camps...which some of them were already in work when the war started...as Gulags.

Finns released the "gulagers" and put the pop in that was thought be "troublesome" during the war instead.

The losses those detainees in these camps suffered were mostly because of malnutrition. The Soviet pows suffered also from this.

 

Mannerheim didn't want to attack Leningrad, because it was not a Finnish objective, it would have resulted unnecessary losses and Finland wanted to underline the difference between the objectives of Finland and Germany. Also Leningrad was a city, which was very familiar to Mannerheim, who had lived there many decades. He didn't want to destroy it. However assaulting soviet fortifications at the end of summer -41 wouldn't have been too demanding. The soviet troops were withdrawing with haste and had lost much of the heavy weaponry.

Mannerheim line (not originally named so by the Finns) was never especially strong. It lacked depth and in many places proper fortifications. Its strenght was largely exaggerated by the soviets to justify the great losses.

 

Eastern Karelia has never been part of Finland. On the other hand Karelians are ethnicly Finns and Karelian language(s) is a very close relative to Finnish - some say a Finnish dialect(s). Russians in Eastern Karelia are mostly newcomers, the Karelians have lived there for thousands of years.

Finland never annexed Eastern Karelia - only part of Karelia (the Isthmus, Border Karelia and Laatokka/Ladoga Karelia) which Soviet Union had previosly robbed from Finland.

In December 1939 Soviet Union annexed aggressively Finland with Eastern Karelia by using the puppet government of "the Peoples Democracy of Finland" in Terijoki. However we - the people of Finland - did not agree with that annexation. That was called the Winter War.

 

Eastern Karelia actually belongs to the Karelians, as was agreed in the peace treaty of Tartu 1920. However the Soviet Union betrayd that treaty - as well as many others.

Finland never annexed Eastern Karelia.

In Eastern Karelia lived originally only Karelians. Only a handful of Russians have lived there "for centuries" - mainly in Petrozavodsk, where Peter I founded a gun factory. Later on the number of Russians grew up slowly, mainly by the Murmansk railway. Only during soviet times did the number of russians start to grow - mostly unwillingly, since people were moved there by force. At the same times started the purges against the Karelians and the Finns.

 

Most of the Russians in Eastern Karelia were newcomers or war refugees, which only recently had been transported by the soviet regime either to Eastern Karelia or part of Karelia, which was robbed from the Finns. The purpose of the camps was to move the civilians from the front zone, to feed the civilians, who didnt't have any other means for it and to more easily guard the untrustworthy people. After the war the non-Karelians were to return to their original home areas in Russia, Ukraine and so on.

The retreating red army had left the 86.000 civilians totally without food by moving it away and destroying the rest. Without the Finns the civilians would have all died. Unfortunately the food situation in Finland was very bad. Even in good times Finland was not properly self-sufficient with food. After the Winter War Finland had lost 12 % of her best farming land. The harvest 1941 was bad and because of the new war - again started by the soviets - all of it could not be harvested. The winter 1941-42 was very severe and grain ships from Germany were delayed.

The food rations were not sufficient enough even in Finland. Normal people could get some extra by self gardening, picking berries etc, but people died because of starvation in Finland proper too - mainly in institutions. However no food was transported out of Eastern Karelia.

Out of c. 50.000 non-ethnic Finns in Eastern Karelia abt. 24.000 (less than half) were in the camps at the most. On average the figure was less. The camps didn't even have the wire fences at the beginning. Only after the Typhus epidemic hit the camps the fences were erected to prevent contamination. Most of the deaths happened during the first Continuation War year. After the harvest in 1942 the death figures started to sunk rapidly and reached the normal level towards 1944 - especially when the Karelians believed the Finns, that they could keep themselves what they farmed.

One has to also remember, that there were lots of very young and very old people, since most of the adults had been taken away by the red army etc. The health situation was bad in Eastern Karelia even in peace time. All these factors effected to the high death toll during the first year. The total death toll was abt. 3.500.

This photo is a well known propaganda picture taken by the Russians AFTER the Finns had left. As everybody can see, the children look well fed.

During Finnish occupation time the child mortality figure reached the Finnish norm even in the camps. This level was well below the "normal" soviet peace time child mortality level.

During the war time there was the same work obligation for over 14-years in Finland. Why should the Russians had it easier? That long work hours for children is not true.

That "hot iron" -thing sounds very unbelievable. "Liberated" Russians invented all kind of horror stories to get of the NKVD hook. After the war all soviet citizens in occupated zones were under suspicion of being collaborators, traitors or at least affected by the western "plague".

 

Not to get off topic here but this has been discussed here in deatail....

Mauno Jokipii seemed to disagree. His work "The Continuation War: An Investigation of German-Finnish Military Collaboration 1940-1941 " contradicts the above..

 

Anyway, Sloniksp, you must also recall what Molotov requested in Berlin Dec 1940 from Hitler, so we´re back to the question who wanted what and first...Then again it is admitted the Finns helped the Germans with their bombing ops and mined important sea areas during Barbarossa´s opening phases, but Finnish land operations only started after the Red Army Air force bombed Finnish cities. But like said the Soviet view was not peaceful after the Winter War, and Molotov´s request confirms that. You could say he had his trains by the border side ready for Finns to be taken to Siberia.

 

I don't know what he specificly writes about the harvest of summer 1941. Anyway the bad harvest and inability to harvest it totally is well known information in Finland.

Could you quote me what he exactly says?

 

There is a fair amount of info on these threads:
Axis History Forum • View topic - Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia
Axis History Forum • View topic - Finnish policy over East Karelia
Axis History Forum • View topic - Documentary on POW camps in Finland this one is short but has links to a bunch of other threads on page 2.

At least one of the the threads on that forum went into considerable detail on the food situation in Finland.

 

It was not the harvest I was referring to

 

Please correct me if im mistaken but from my memory, the bombing raids only came right after the Finnish attempt to re-militarize the Alan Islands?

 

If anything I´d think we´d send ships to protect the Alan islands. After all, it´s between Sweden and Finland and sending troops there would be sending them in the wrong direction. because of helping Germans with bombing the USSR definitely is a good call to bomb Finland.

 

So what are you referring to then?

One has to remember that although Finland was still an independant and democratic nation even after the war, everything releted to SU was very much hush hush. (Too) many Finnish people - including some historians - were contaminated by soviet plague. Personally I would be very critical when reading books about the WW2 prior 1990. Most of the facts are naturally right - conclusions not always.

Finland as a democracy had and has many different historians, who make their own researches and conclusions. Some are more believable than others. There is no one "truth" dictated by the state.

 

The Geneva agreement 1921 concerning de-militarization of Aland islands put Finland under an obligation to make sure, that no other nation would occupy them. Threrefore - in the situation when a war had broken out between Germany and SU, which both had troops in Finland - it was totally necessary for Finland to occupy those islands, which after all were and are part of Finland. This operation was fully in line with the articles of that Geneva agreement.

Soviet bombings of Finland were the start and the final reason for the Continuation War.

 

Karjala,

I will address your posts in the "Continuation war" thread as to not highjack this one.

 

Nearly half of the inmates were children under the age of fifteen.

 

Most of the Russians in Eastern Karelia were newcomers or war refugees, which only recently had been transported by the soviet regime either to Eastern Karelia or part of Karelia, which was robbed from the Finns. The purpose of the camps was to move the civilians from the front zone, to feed the civilians, who didnt't have any other means for it and to more easily guard the untrustworthy people. After the war the non-Karelians were to return to their original home areas in Russia, Ukraine and so on.

Transfer that to the Boer war and my own nation and we get the early concentration camps..In their truer literate sense. Of course the Spanish American wars brought us the camps earlier than this. But if you are defending the word concentration rather than extermination camps then you'll understand why many Brit historians get into the symantics arguments.

 

First, I'm glad to hear from you dear urqh.

I don't see this as a question of semantics or naming but about the facts, or should I say what really happened with all these kids detained in these camps? Death rate was suspiciously high - 30% and they died from starvation. Clearly, it is of no relevance how someone wants to name facilities where they've been detained. What counts is that the death rate was much higher in these camps than among soldiers who have imprisoned them and also among all other population. Also, military authorities have separated population of Karelia on purely racist basis with high degree of scrutiny and became very clumsy when all these children and their mothers had to be fed, which is against sound reason and the most basic sense of humanity.

 

Concentrate folk into any camp envioronmet and control it like a self prison and we'll have deaths. Closed prisons which are answerable to a legal system will of course be much better run. But a loose moral and ethical system sure helps to ignore the problems of those behind any wire. Starvation, disease, unless your answereable and monitoring and wish to prevent illness and death as well as imprison. folk even in only temp internment as in N.Ireland, will lead to death. It doesn't really matter if caused by a bullet or typhoid. If you are doing it on purpose it is murder. If not allowing to die on purpose its manslaughter to me. No excuses. I suppose even a hunger or dirty strke no matter the cause for putting someone inside even today should be looked at as involuntary manslaugter. Thats why we have supposed ethics and morals...apparantly...some just lose them today. But a camp set up specifically to exterminate is a nations problem and guilt. No one should improson today though without knwing the duty of care even to those we would wish dead. That is some may say unfortunate but dems the rules we play by and should play by.