The main myth of the Continuation War

Well, wasn't it quite natural that Red Russians supported Red Finns?
I really envy the Finns, that their White Movement could propose some realistic idea that was appreciated by the people. Russian White Movement had nothing of the kind, and lost.

 

Soviet Russia supported the red Finns and Finland supported white Russians (or Karelians and Estonians) but to my knowledge there never was an official declaration of war on neither side(?) The Tartu peacetalks were organized to stop militant forces from crossing the border and to prevent areas (eg. Repola, Porajärvi) from swapping their 'nationality'.
It was also important to have a mutual agreement about where the actual border would be. Because before that there was some room for interpretation and that had led to problems.

 

This is not the period of my knowledge, so I cannot provide any additional evidence. Russian sources say about this declaration in similar words, so I suspect it all goes to a single source which I am unable to identify.

 

Driving a country into a certain civil war by sending guns and ammo? Yes, the revolution must go on....

 

Are you surprised? That was the goal of Lenin and Trotzki. I suppose you blame them for it. Then, please, answer one question, yes or no.
Entente states had the goal of their own -- they wanted Russia to continue the war with Germany. That's why they supported Russian White Movement, driving Russia into terrible civil war. Would you blame Entente for it as well?

 

No, those are historical facts. But why was it ok for Lenin to send ammo and help to the reds in Finland or entente move help to the white Russians, but some Finnish freedom fighters were not ok to go to the Eastern Karelia, at least I got that message from your previous posting?

 

I never said "it was not okay". Saying so we should answer a question "for whom was it okay or not"? It is you who's always keen to sort complex things to black and white, I'm not even trying to. For the Zulu, capturing bushmen's cows was certainly okay, it was good. And when bushmen captured their cows, this was evil, not okay at all.
What I said was that Soviet propaganda used Finnish invasions to promote hatred to Finland in Soviet citizens, just the same did the Finnish government about the USSR. It was mutual hostility and mutual desire to do something bad to the neighbor. When the USSR was stronger, Finland could not afford anything of the kind, and the Soviet Union could. But Finland used its chance with German invasion to Russia, using Soviet aggression of 1939 as a good excuse.

 

The main myth of ww2 is that Soviet Union was a victim. In the Nuremberg trials the Western Allies realised that some of the same charges that were made against the Germans applied also against the Soviets.

The Soviets speak and write about the Great Patriotic War for a reason. They want to look like they were the victim. That the Winter War is left out or "omitted" is no accident. Since the GPW lasted from 1941 to 45 that leaves out such "little incidents" like the Winter War, invasion of Poland, annexations of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania plus the capture of Bessarabia from Rumania.

The Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty also had some other effects...like SU selling war materials to Germany for their conquest of the West.

Some victim I'd say...

 

Ever heard of a country that had 20,000+ tanks for defensive purposes by 1939-1940? Interesting thought isn´t it? If Germany had had 20,000 tanks would it be considered aggressive or defensive? The myth of the defensive Soviet Union, I think. Hardly a victim unless by own hand as it almost happened.

 

The Continuation War should not have surprised anybody, springing as it did from The Winter War, which was a product of Stalinist paranoia, lock stock and barrel.

If ever there was a conflict that was fought in the name of blatant expansionism, it was The Winter War. All it served to do was to push an acknowledged neutral country firmly in the back toward the Axis camp. Finland would have stayed out of the conflict as Sweden did, but had to suffer a Russian dictator bent on stripping territory and grabbing bases, like the port of Hango.

Any modernRrussian that attempts to paint the Continuation War as an aggressive move by Finland as a nation is doing a diservice to modern Russia, and to history as a subject.

The Finns taught the Red Army many harsh lessons. What a wake -up call it was!. The shadow of The Winter War cast long.

IMAGINE a "What if" scenario of WW2 with no Winter War. The Soviet Union might well have had the same 'Wake up" in 1941 instead of 1939-1940, with no opportunity to set in place much needed reforms, particularly to the way they used artillery, which, even for Barbarossa, left a lot to be desired.

Modern Russsians should consider their country VERY fortunate that it was the Finnish School of Warfare that they graduated from, rather than having to learn their lessons as the German invasion rolled in......

 

Who is this guy anyway? Some apologist for Russian Imperialism?

Seems he's read too many old copies of "Pravda", and has bought the whole line of Stalinism...

Well, mate, heres what I think...

Stalinism and your precious revolution were a disgrace to humanity as whole. You should be thankful that Adolf Hitler was a rabid anti-communist willing to take a gamble. The Imperial Russian regime went from bad to worse in it's prosecution of the First World War. Brusilov could not save the incompetence that put the Imperial Army in the position they found themselves in at the beginning of 1917. Russian mobilization brought on The Great War, turning a Balkan police action into a Europe wide conflict by Russian guarantees to Serbia in their self imposed role as "protector of the Slavs".

There would not have been a World War 2 without the Nazi-Soviet Pact, and attempts by modern Russians to wipe away the stain of Stalinism are ludicrous in the extreme.

Why don't you just rewrite the history books once more, casting yourselves as the saviours of European people from the jackboot of Nazism. Honest and patriotic Russians standing tall against evil Westerners! Forward my friends! For the Party, for the Motherland, FOR STALIN! URAHHH!!!!

Go back to Petrograd....

 

Mr. Artema also suggests that Finland really was intending to do harm against SU.

A person who really knows his history (or Finland's history) might say that Finland was preparing for the 1940 summer Olympics which were to be held in Helsinki.
Naturally the games could be held in 52.

The Finns and the Soviets also had a non-agression pact going.

It is true that Finland and Soviet-Russia were in defacto war in 1919 - 1922 as was Soviet-Russia against Great Britain and USA. This war was an undeclared one.

When Finland gained independence the Finnish reds launched their revolution...they were joined by the Russian garrisons in Finland (roughly 20000 strong rabid revolutionaries) and later they received weapons + ammo from Lenin.

The 2 Finnish expeditions to Eastern Karelia comprised about 2000 men and were private attempts/adventures. This was called as a "Tribal War". Hardly a huge invasion would you say? Or "Operation Barbarossa the Prequel"?

The Treaty of Dorpat in 1922 ended this undeclared war between the Finns and the Soviets. Young Stalin was present in the Soviet delegation. Robert Edwards suggests that Stalin wanted revenge.

One should also remember that the Soviet sponsored Terijoki -government made of Finnish red exiles in SU made an agreement with the Soviets. The new socialistic Finland was to receive the disputed Eastern Karelia from the Soviets after they have conquered Finland in the Winter War.

So I guess in the end Stalin and his cronies kinda accidentally "admitted" that Eastern Karelia should be Finnish territory. Funny though

 

You are somehow trying to compare the Winter War to what the Germans did in Russia?

Your hatred for Russia has blinded you of facts once again and no matter how pationately you try to excuse or deny Finlands military and political cooperation with Germany wont change the fact that Finland (no matter the reason) fought alongside ultimate evil.

"Some victim" you say? "They want to look they were the victim" you say? Finland fought on the side of a nation which massacred over 20 million civilians (just in Russia). You dare claim that these people were not victims?!?! What a shameful post.

Negative rep awarded.

 

How many tanks should a country with the land mass that of Russia have before being considered offensive?

Today Russia has over 25,000 tanks. Who is it that she is preparing to go to war with?

If you are comparing apples to apples, than Germany for her size (50 times smaller than Russia) having 3,000 tanks is actually more than Russia having 20,000...

 

In fact it actually looks that the Soviet civil+military casualties were more than 26 millions.

Soviet casualties

I guessl we all feel a great respect for the memory of the great people of Russia (or Soviet Union). Without their enormous sacrifice the defeat of Nazi Germany would have been almost impossible.

It does not seem right to mix the memory of the Russian people with the actions of Stalin, at least not in a post that mentioned the Nuremberg trials. Is suggested that the convicted in thouse trials had a right to commit the atrocities perpetrated against the Russian people? That's not true, proclaim something like that is indecent.

It is like saying that if dad is a criminal, I can pursue the mother, her children, cousins and those who did business with him. It seems the stuff of the "Cossa Nostra."

 

You tell me...

 

I think you already know my answer

 

No. It should be quite obvious what I was saying since I wrote in the previous post unless you're trying to imply that there's something else which is NOT there.

But then again we won't know for sure what would have happened if Finland was conquered in Winter War.

What are the facts I'm blinded of? The military co-op betweeen Finns and Germans? I have NOT denied that. The Finnish posters here have NOT denied that because it it A HISTORICAL FACT. It is YOU who is in denial or ignoring of historical facts.

No, I'm not daring to claim since I wasn't claiming that in the 1st place. Shameful post, you say? It is you who are "putting words into my posts" so to say.

What is there to read: There are parts in WWII concerning Soviet Union that doesn't fit the picture of "Great Patriotic War". The Soviet's kept quiet about Winter War for a specific reason (which I wrote in the previous post of what you are commenting). Today's Russian historians are trying deal with that since it was impossible or impopular to do in "commie" -era.

Gee, thanks. Let's see...after reading my 2 posts you have decided to accuse me of...

- denying historical facts (or being blinded of...again)
- not acknowledging Germany's atrocities in Russia (and elsewhere?)
- being a Russian hater

Heavy stuff...

Was that all? Well, this is not hardly surprising to anyone who has argued with a Russian national in the net before. Somehow you get painted as a russophobe because you don't share the same view.

I guess next I'm a neonazi, ultranationalist or something like that...which is quite far from the truth.

Quite a strong message from a forum trustee but then I guess I can see your true color now.

Lets get something straight: I do admire the Russian people and average "Ivan the footsoldier" for enduring the nazi onslaught and beating it back and for their part destroying the Nazi Empire. But I have a strong dislike of anyone who is throwing around certain "keywords" when it comes Finland in WWII: these Finns were really fascist and a Nazi ally, Finns contributed to the holocaust, The Britain's declaration of war means that Finland is "a bad country" etc and all that revisionistic crap...

You have ASSUMED something in my posts and decided to post a personal attack...not really becoming to a trustee. Or is it because you couldn't beat my argument? Or did you think I have left the forum for good?

Now, you have accused me...the burden of proof is on you.

 

AirdefMike,

relax and take a deep breath. The beauty in a forum such as this is that everything is written for all to see. This too can be a double edged sword for a rogue who is not careful in choosing his/her words wisely when speaking on a very sensitive subject/issue. The war in the east along with the atrocities commited there was just that, and not only for Russians but also for Eastern Europeans. One might compare the sensitivity to say accusing Finland of somehow contributing to the Holocaust (which too would be ingnorant)

I am putting words into your posts?

the following was stated by none other.

Looking at the following, where exactly did I put words into your posts?
Regarless of your feelings towards Stalin, the Soviet Union WAS a victim (one of many in WW2) but also a victim which suffered the worst in Europe. It is for that incensetive and a bit hostile post which earned you a negative rep (and I give out very few so its safe to say that you earned that one).

The "Patriotic War" started when Germany attacked the Soviet Union and not prior. Winter War was not part of the Patriotic War thus not mentioned in the "Patriotic War". Winter War, however; was always public knowledge in Russia and no attempt was made of covering it up ( some details perhaps but not the actual conflict). With that said there is much which the Iron Curtain kept secret, including virtually all information pertaining to Russia's involvement in WW2 (IMO, a mistake which Russia is paying for today). It is for this reason why many myths regarding Russias involvement in WW2 exist today, as all the information prior to the Soviet Union's collapse was gathered from German sources and not Soviet Archives.

I have followed all 20 of your posts AirdefMike. Virtually, all of your posts contain the same thing; sarcasm, emotion/opinion, some come of hostile and some are just historically incorrect..
EXAMPLE: POST #13 in HOW THE CONTINUATION WAR BEGAN"

Specifically,

This is NOT true. Please remember, that it is Mauno Jokipii's analysis which contradicts virtually all of which you claim and you have yet to find a legitimate source which backs your theory. Until you do, myself, and other rogues in here will continue to take note from world scholars, in this case a scholar from Finland.

With that said, I have never accused you of not acknowledging Germany's atrocities in Russia nor of being a Russian hater. However, your posts do not come off friendly and one can only read so much before drawing a conclusion of your feelings towards Russia, not warm.

As for blinded, yes I did. Again, post #13 should be an example in which you state irrelevant information such as events taking place after June 22, 1941 by which time the two states had already been at war and try to appease or refuse to accept the fact that Finland not Russia broke a treaty which started the conflict (Mauno Jokipii's analysis)

I for one, hold no grudges but must remind you, that we have members here from all over the world and some may hold you more accountable for such posts in the future.

Also, Artema hasnt posted here in quite a bit...

And I have been here for a number of years now and have never seen any rogues accusing Finland of somehow contributing to the Holocaust.

BTW I live in the United States and have been here for over 20 years

 

Sloniki...

SU was also ally of Germany. This is how they partitioned Poland. I realise that Russian participation in this was probably Stalin's retribution for the actions of Poland in 1921, but it still does not alter the fact that the Russo/German conquest of Poland was very much a joint affair. I would state that it was not possible for Poland to be attacked at all without mutual co-operation from the Soviets and Germany. Would you agree?