Penal units at Velikie Luki?

does anyone know if there were penal units on the soviet side at Velikie Luki? Im writing a novel and this is something i need to know.

if there isn't any info on this (its a hard battle to get details on) would it be unreasonable to suggest that there were?

cheers

 

I have no idea if there were or not but I would say that it is entirely reasonable to say that there could of been.
I believe that there is a memoir of a Soviet Officer who served in a penal unit but for the life of me I can't remember what the title is. Maybe another member will be able to provide the details.

 

thanks, i know its a nightmare to find info on this battle (and on penal units in detail to be fair)

 

Have you had a look at this?

http://www.ww2f.com/eastern-europe-...1943/37876-velikie-luki-stalingrad-north.html

 

In my rather extensive research on this battle I haven't turned up any evidence of penal units used by the Red Army. However, as you say, it's quite possible because details are sketchy at best. The Russians had a big problem with defectors during the battle and some of the units had just been rebuilt, so I would say it's very possible. Just keep it as small as possible in size, maybe a company instead of an entire battalion.

 

Bill;
Here is what turned up from the Voice of Russia on Penal Battalions (Shtrafbat); The Voice of Russia (The Stalingrad battle - 60 years) There is also a Russian made movie on the subject; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXIIqeIC_vs&feature=PlayList&p=24E9CC71BF6DCE12&index=0&playnext=1 Merridale puts the numbers at close to a half million persons that served in the Schtrafbats; http://books.google.com/books?id=O0...resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
WEre these formations used at Veliki Luki? http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-velikiye-luki-surrounded-in-the-snow.htm Possibly but possibly not-VL was pretty early in the war(no mention of them here; http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent?file=PRsovietf But that does not mean that there might not have been some). There is that scene from "Enemy at the Gates" where the green troops are sent against a German position largely unarmed and under the guns of security men? Probably not an accurate depiction of what happened with regular RKKA troops(an unfavorable review of that flick here; http://www.battlefield.ru/en/hall-of-shame/206-enemy-at-the-gates.html ). Such things did happen in the penal battalions though. Some Russian historians are putting the numbers much higher than Merridale's; http://www.quikmaneuvers.com/red_army_tactics.html It is interesting that this author puts the number of RKKA men murdered by the NKVD at two million-a number which does not seem possible given the fact that totall RKKA casualties are estimated at 7 millions.

JeffinMNUSA

 

Jeff- 2 million does seem high. I wonder, though, does that include freed prisoners of war who were often herded to the front of an attack as cannon fodder, since they were already considered traitors? Numbers with the Red Army are so hard to pin down with certainty, I know, but if you do include freed POWs as those killed by the NKVD, or those whom the NKVD actually executed, then perhaps you approach that number.

 

Bill;
Well for certain the numbers vary wildly-I tend to lean towards Merridale on this one. But for certain the USSR shot a lot more of it's soldiers than any of the other belligerants. Vasily Grossman's secret notebook contains numerous examples during his times at the front. But the Volkogonov number of 2 million? Maybe he is counting strafbat casualties as executions you think? Possible. Maybe he is estimating casualties on the shadow wars in the occuppied territories where NKVD has a powerfull presence. It sounds like they are just as baffled by these issues over there as we are here; http://russian-front.com/
JeffinMNUSA

 

Yep, Soviet numbers are tough to pin down and very frustrating. I was thinking that to hit 2 million you would almost have to include everybody. But the NKVD made so many disappear that I can't really say for sure. I have great need of exact numbers for my current project and they just aren't there, at least that I can find yet.

My favorite interview of all time, by the way, was with a panzer crew member of 8th Panzer who joined the unit just after Velikiye Luki, spent time in a Soviet POW camp after the war and wound up my neighbor in Tennessee, and I didn't know it until just before he passed away. I had a few conversations with him, but only a few.

 

Bill;
Well there are some mountains of records in Russia nobody has much gone through. THe world still might possibly never really know-given the destruction and devastation of that war. Eisenhower was touring the wreckage that was Russia and expressed his utter horror to his good friend Marshall Zhukov in 1945. I believe Giorgiy said something to the effect that they could really never know for sure how many people had been lost.
Yeah I used to work with a guy who everybody said had been in the German Army. He came in one day laughing about how "Dot Hogans Heros is CHUST like der Cherman Arm! JAWOOOHLL!" he did the SGT Shultz salute. Somebody asked him if he ever wore one of those uniforms and and it was like his face just froze over. He then just walked away. Lord knows what that guy saw.
JEffinMNUSA

 

Perhaps the hardest thing of all might be separating the combat losses from those who were simply executed for whatever reason, or stuck in a penal battalion, or defected. I wish I could answer the OP's question about VL, but as you say there is no telling what the records could reveal. On the other hand, even if those records are given to historians, can we trust the translations? Could they simply be more of what we got after the war, white-washed versions that glossed over embarrassing facts? I wish that I knew.

By the way, I am hoping to soon interview a survivor of the Siege of Budapest, a civilian who kept a diary during the entire time. Sadly, I can't read Hungarian, but he speaks English. I'll post a recap if I get to see him.

 

I have done extensive research into this battle. I have also spoken with David Glantz and Shelby Stanton (both have written Orders of Battle about the fighting there); they have not discovered any indication that the Russians used "Penal" battalions during these battles. But then again, the Russians were very secretive about some units. So maybe this did happen, but I would just stick with what normal Russian Army units that were invovled.

 

My late Father fought at Vlikyie Luki. August Noorkoiv, I know he told me that the Estonian regiment he served in were intially held in a prison camp, until the Russian government decided otherwise and released them for action. It brought back strong memories for him when he saw the film 'a day in the life of Ivan Denisovich' apologies for the spelling.


Alan Noorkoiv