Okinawans want Marine base gone

USFK numbers roughly 28,500 effectives at any given time. Of these better than half are support units as opposed to combat units. What USFK does in the OPLAN without going into detail is support the ROK Forces, they are speed bump in effect. I know a couple of ROK Army units and ROKMC unit's have "die in place" orders should NK jump the DMZ.

USFK and the ROK'S are supposed to fight delaying actions until supporting forces named in the OPLAN can be deployed into certain areas of the ROK.

 

Spaniard and formerjughead: you guys please quit picking at each other here and on other threads. This is getting annoying , you have both been warned. I would hate to have to see you crossing a line , but if this is the case I won't hesitate to use some cooler time

 

So basically, if someone says something that is against your thoughts and beliefs is wrong and that person should reevaluate his or her right to be here? As I said before - respect goes both ways, always! Obviously you don't have any respect to people that disagree with you, so don't you ever come to me and whine about lack of respect to you.

Ok, i agree with you that situation in the Pacific haven't been the same during the cold war. Well so? Cold war ended 20 years ago. Even if North Korea has been talking big time to time, people are starving to death there. Even if their army is big, their technology is ancient. Their missiles are woth of nothing. Besides, if North Korea has to stoped, it has to be done from South Korea, not from Okinawa, Guam or whatever. And do you really think that North Korea is capable of building such an armada of war ships that they could start invading nothing? Yes, I know that western world can't totally forget possible threat that North Korea could form in some scale, but come on!

Yes, we could help you out as we do in Afghanistan, but surely you knew this already? Otherwise this comment is quite stupid and needles.

 

I have No problems with your Request Skipper, Will comply.

My Apologies to All Members.

 

Which ever way you want to look at the problem one is always wrong. While I myself support keeping the bases open for numerous reasons, there will always be two sides to the story. One side will always claim Americans over step their bounds and the bases are not needed. We are not the "world police" so we should just go home. The other side will always claim, that we never wanted to be the "world police" it has been expected of us. This is also true. This goes on all over the world. Regardless of which action we take, the US will always remain on the side of wrong in the eyes of many, and right in the eyes of others.

many people were quite upset with the US handling of the airport in Haiti that took so many supplies. They claimed the US overstepped our bounds to be the ones who controlled it, and were not at all happy that some planes were turned away. What they fail to realize is that we took an airport that landed a dozens of planes a day, and landed hundreds. An incredible feat of logistics many people do not understand.

When the horrible loss of life occurred in December 2004 in Indonesia, the US sent a number of ships and aircraft to lend aid in search and rescue as well as humanitarian. These ships came from Japan, Guam, and Hong Kong. Still the world claimed response was too slow. Aircraft flew from bases in Thailand, and from carriers stationed in Asia.

When we take the military nature out of the military, we are left with a group of people trained to push supplies through regions devastated by either war or natural disaster. These men are some of the best hope for smaller nations to get food, water, and medical supplies through to those who need it. When Okinawans decide that American bases are no longer needed on their island (it is their island) then they should also know, it effects far more people than they want to think it does.

 

I think in the case of Italy the rules are stated in the 1951 London agreements on legal jurisdition over NATO personnel not bilateral agreements. That may make it legal, but it does not necessarily make it right. IMO that that sort of behaviour generates resentment, and politicians are sensitive to things that make voters angry, so if you run into one that wants to make political capital of that anger it's likely to result in the end of the agreement.

 

That's not it at all ed, I have an issue with people who consistantly take statements out of context to inflame an argument.

You need to look at where Okinawa is in relationship to N.Korea. There is no place else, in such proximatey, that could be used to stage troops. The Island of Okinawa is an incredible asset in the North Pacific. Consider for a moment if hostilities arise in Korea and Japan chooses to remain neutral and not allow forces to stage on the island of Japan? The ability troops to preposition on Okinawa allows Japan to remain neutral as Okinawa is a prefecture of Japan as opposed to a State.

I am sure that if push comes to shove on the Korean peninsula that Canada and Finland will be right there; just as they are in Afghanistan; however, neither country has the ability to park a Carrier Battel Group in the South China Sea and operate independantly.

The point I was trying to make with my socalled "Stupid and Needless Coment" was that if North Korea crosses the 38th Paralell they are not going to call Finland or Canada for help.

My appologies to the Moderation / Administration team

 

Ok, fair enough. I too oppose people who are intentionally trying to make an argument out of nothing. That wasn't mine intention too.

Yes, I realise this. My point was that North Korea hardly can't pose any threat on the Pacific at this time. I realise that too that other was talking about daughter and other about mother, you see? So, your opinion is that US troops should stay there? That's fine by me, I don't care the reasons. But what I care is that if japanese people want US troops out of there, they should go. The history and the place and the legacy will stay, forever. As I said earlier, no one and nothing can't take that away from you.

No, we don't have carriers and even if we had, I don't think we would park them anyones shores without their free will. But as you said, we don't have them, so I really can't tell. Your comment made me think that you were seriously disrespecting Finland and our army. Our army is to protect our very own land and borders and to assist UN in international missions, nothing more.

So, I propose you a truce? This arguing is unnecessary and US troops will leave the island or stay there what ever we might think about it and there's nothing we can do about it. Hopefully we both can learn to respect each others opinions and not to despise other peoples thoughts, where ever they are from or what ever they are.

 

Theoretically they do not. They do; however, pose a threat to South Korea and beings the UN is still in overall command of the mission in South Korea there is a contingent of 29,000 US Troops there. Is North Korea going to swoop through the South and take over the world; not likely. Is the US or UN going to stand by while the North seizes control over one of it's member nations......nope.

The inhabitants of Okinawa are not Japanese. Making an issue over US forces leaving the island was started by the Ryuku Independence movement as early as 1951

I find your terms acceptable

 

Ok, truce it is then. Let's drink for that

 

at last , good to see we are dealing with some reasonable people

 

As Americans we have seen total war in almost every generation. At 55 years old I'm tired of it.

In the Cuba Missle Crisis I had to practice hiding under my desk at school in preperation of the bombing....As a teenager I just missed the Vietnam War...In 1972 I was fortunate enough to spend my summer working in the 1972 Olympics, in Munich (Munchen) Germany.....The hill overlooking the main stadium was built from rubble of WW 2. I sat as a snot nose kid of 15 at the Haufbrau Haus in downtown Munich in 1972 with German citizens that fought or lived through the war and its occupation. From those 3 months in Germany, I can honestly tell you I felt the pressure as an American from the Germans. Not so much of hate but rather as jelousy. These people knew if handled differently they may have won the war in Europe....But they dealt with the realities of their aggression and accepted their fate under America and NATO. There was also an East Germany at that time and the citizens knew it was much worse over the wall.

As Americans we took a look at WW 2 and decided to fight the fight rather than be the arms and money brokers. When we fought with our allies we decided the terms to the axis is "Unconditional Surrender"......I never heard of time limits of "Unconditional Surrender". As one of the victors and conquerors of aggression shouldn't we have the choice as when to return this land ??

65 years is not a lot of time. There are obvious wounds still open like I saw in Munich in 1972. If you think N Korea is the problem in Asia, remember China backed them during the Korean War. Japan tortured this country for a long time. Do you today feel you can trust China ?? Can you promise China will not become aggressive in the next 5-20 years ?? Can the world today promise China in 2025, won't become the Japan of the 1930's.

Better hope not because out of respect to those brave men and women from WW 2, that have become a simple footnote in history, I hope we just sit and watch this time !!!

Since I started this I hope this ends it. I will never again post another inflamatory subject again......... Unless it's about Mark Clark in Italy !!!

Best Regards To All

 

The US IS the world police force, because, well, NO ONE ELSE IS STEPPING UP!

The UN is a pathetic organization when it comes to military operations. See Rwanda, Bosnia, Sudan, etc, etc.How many genocides and ethnic cleansings have gone on since the UN was created? Too many.

As for Okinawa, we should leave. If China wants to avenge Japan's running rough shod over them 70 years ago, so be it.China has that right if you ask me.North Korea can take over the South. I couldn't care less. Neither of those nations are worth our blood and treasure.

Truthfully, I am so sick of anti-Americanism that I am becoming isolationist. Everyone wants to blame all the problems on us and take no responsibility themselves. That is bullpucky.

Let's bring ALL the troops home. Then we can see how effective International Law is at stopping war, genocide, ethnic cleansing,etc. I bet it will be about as effective as using a peashooter versus a battleship,

The WWII generation did its job in helping free the world from tyranny. Now that same world bashes us. What an insult.

Our troops are a precious commodity. Why waste it on a world full of arrogant , hateful, idiots, who refuse to acknowledge their role in the problems humanity faces? We aren't perfect, but at least Americans are self aware enough to admit their flaws.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to offend, on second glance your post does seem rather directed so allow me to address it:

Well then you haven't been paying attention.

This should be a non issue for veterans, and their family members, they should be allowed to visit whenever they want, within reason as long as they arrange their own transportation.

I had the opportunity to talk to a young Marine who had just returned from a West-Pac a few months ago. I asked if he had been to Iwo and he told me that Japan no longer allowed units to visit the island.

American servicemen and women have been on Iwo regularly for the 50 years after the the Island was secured; danger areas are clearly marked and there is a very well documented trail system to points of interest. Iwo is still a dangerous place; but, no more dangerous than 29 Palms, Ft. Irwin or parts of Europe where munitions are still found.

Two things:
I am the reason the rest of the world looks to America when they need help. Thats right, I helped liberate Kuwait, fed Somalia and built a school in Panama.....I must be a real bastard.

and the people who are indigenous to Okinawa are not Japanese; they are Okinawan

We are not talking about Japan there are still US Military bases in Japan to include Iwakuni Airbase and the USS George Washington CVN-73, and her battle group, in Yokosuka. I am sure that if Japan had it's druthers all American forces would be stationed in Okinawa. The Military occupation of Japan ended in 1951 with the first SOFA.

Having the military in Okinawa has nothing to do with whether or not Japan still poses a threat; it has everything to do with prepositioning forces and supporting and promoting American interests in a region.

Bastogne, Normandy and Caen are not strategic to the defense of Europe, as a matter of fact they are vacation destinations. The people of Okinawa were liberated just the same as the Filipinos were liberated. The Japanese "annexed" Okinawa through a series of military incursions in 1879 and they were granted the right to vote and self govern in 1912 (Ryukyu Prefecture). So yeah we did liberate Okinawa.

Times have changed; but, a state of war still exists between the two Korea's. Having a large US military presence brings stability to the area. Having US forces does provide a deterrent against nuclear attack; not nuclear nation in the world is going to attack another nation, with nuclear weapons, if there is a chance of killing those troops; US troops provide a human deterrent.

North Korea is only a threat to South Korea; however, a state of war still exists between the two nations and the UN is in charge of maintaining the cease fire. Like it or not the US is the major player when the defense of UN Member nations is called into question making it the "Universal Police Force". As far as stationing troops in South Korea: There are 28,000 US troops in Korea and 33,000 in Japan and Okinawa, all of which are supported through Kadeena AFB and Camp Foster (Butler) on the Island of Okinawa.

By The US leaving Okinawa it puts an incredible logistics strain on the forces deployed in the region. Guam just doesn't have the availability the Okinawa affords.

War fighting and peace keeping are not things you can appreciate by playing computer games.

And now I am really done with this thread.

 

So - breaking this down - with the Okinawans asking for their freedom from Japan? Was there any sort of 'rebel' moevement in regards to that? It doesn't appear that way, since Okinawa is still part of Japan, unless I am mistaken. So how does one liberate a people yet have those people and their 'country' remain part of what they were supposedly liberated from? Do not confuse 'Liberation' with 'Occupation'. It seems that if they already had the right to self-govern etc prior to the outbreak of WW2, then the US 'conquered' and not 'liberated' them.

My points about Bastogne etc were in reference to the statement about 'having earned Okinawa due to US loss of life there' or something along those lines. I am sure it is quite possible to find a place of strategic importance in Europe and claim it in the same manner?

So...by defeating Tyranny, this gives us the right to become a Tyrant? WW2 wasn't fought so that the USA could become a World Power and stick its nose in every one elses affairs. We certainly have the means to do it, but that doesnt mean we should. I won't even mention the current Iraq/Afghanistan Wars.

Defending South Korea is nothing more then a continuation of the Cold War, Communism being the perceived threat. So what if North Korea invades and takes over the South? Sure, for the people it would really suck, but that is their problem to deal with. Its not our problem. Having the Korean peninsula all under Communist control really doesn't change anything in the world. Look at Africa for example - things of a much worse nature happen there, but the US does not intervene. So, as self proclaimed World Police, we choose who to help and who to let die?

US Military bases do not bring stability to an area. If anything they provide areas with a focal point - be it hate or bombings - with which they can let their hatred of the US be felt. Saudi Arabia for instance.

The US should be concerned with protecting its own borders, first and foremost. There is no reason for military occupations or bases in foreign countries. How much would you like it if the Russians or French establish a military base in your backyard?

 

The US pays rent for the use of Okinawa. Read about Okinanwa and it's relationship with Japan and the formation of the Ryukyus.

So are US bases in Germany different than the US Base in Okinanwa, or Italy, Guam, Puerto Rico, or Baharain?

Tyrants don't pay rent.

Defending Korea is a result of the Cold War.

You have a very simplistic view of world affairs and that is the difference between your generation and mine.

 

here we go again...... I knew that soon or late this would end in a "my country is better than yours" debate. I shall not interfere but from now on the fist one who spits on the U.S will have to face the possibility of a hate related infraction, and fair enough this goes the other way round as well, so before you say no else steps in , I'd appreciate you to raise the debate above the local pub conversation level and have a thought for the many countries involved (even modestly) in several coallitions throughout the planet.

Also please keep this debate gentle, several mods are watching it and won't hesitate to close it if needed.

 

I take great offense of you calling my views 'simple'. In fact, I request you retract that insult. Simply because my world views differ from yours does not make mine 'simple'.

Again, you seem to have missed the point about the 'gung ho' attitude and claiming Okinawa due to the WW2 battle and loss of Marines life. I was responding to the statements about 'we won the right' 'we deserve it' etc etc.

Tyrants do pay - bullying or forcing countries into letting them build a base is still Tyranny. As is getting involved in everyone else's affairs. There is so much resentment towards the USA because of this - always getting involved in places where they are not wanted.

And you're still avoiding answering how you would feel if some foreign army set up a military base in your back yard. As Americans, we would never STAND for that! We'd actively try and get rid of it.