D-Day Landings

Churchill actually liked stalin?

I to watched that series did I miss something?

 

Who was it that called Stalin "Uncle Joe"?

 

True but what was said in private?

 

richard, i dont think it was one person who called him uncle joe...take a look at this sight, may help you http://www.sobran.com/friends.shtml

 

Fascinating bit of reading.

 

What if Hitler hadnt been asleep during the invasion and ordered his panzers to attack? If the Germans won at Stalingrad, Moscow, and Leningrad, and lets say the Russians did surrender. The Germans could have sent those troops to France. How much it would have helped I dont know because the troops arriving from the eastern Front would most likely be deomralized and tired of fighting.

 

Lets also say that Hitler did too much dancing the night before the invasion and tripped and broke his neck.


Well its about as likely...

 

Haha

Or if he choked on a pretzel....

 

The Problem with What if there are thousands of factors but they are interesting and fun.

 

The Allies retain the advantage of initiative in where they land for an invasion of Europe. Given the original premise here, the Allies may not have landed in Normandy at all but elsewhere. The Germans have to defend everything from Norway to Greece against such a landing.
Since the Germans lack the manpower and materials to make such a lengthy front secure from landings the Allies will make it ashore. Certainly, the Allies would still have air superiority (as well as naval) and could interdict the rail and road system making the German response slow just as it was in Normandy.
The Allies would also certainly pull off major ruses like the use of a phoney army, operations Glimmer and Tinsel (two major reasons the German response was delayed) as two examples.
Just a note on the latter two: These were a full blown spoof that exploited the German radar system and its methods of reporting. By the British making it appear that a full invasion was headed to Calais using electronic countermeasures, chaff and, radar reflectors the German early warning system reported that as a fact up to the OKW. As the Germans had no means to visually check this spoof out (neither naval vessels or aircraft) they relied soley on the radar reports that the Allies intentionally set out to decieve.
None of the proposed "what-if" changes any of this being done in support of an invasion elsewhere.

 

The germans had maybe 400,000 - 500,000 soldiers tops in the west before Falais pocket and well over two million in the east. The allies in the west had maybe 400,000 - 500,000 tops. The Germans had at most 600 tanks in the west while the allies had about 1000 tanks but could quickly replace losses in about 24 hours. Meanwhile the Germans had over 2000 tanks in the east. If before June 23rd, Operation Bagration, and all forces can be transfered east, than 2000 tank crews and tanks with tons of skill and expierience (compared to normandy crews with only good officers and expierienced crews in a few divisions) and over 2 million well trained and battle hardened troopes moving east (compared to mainly boys of 16-17 years of age and Polish, Ukrainians, etc.) plus 1000 fighters with damn better expierience than most west german fighters, could also go east. No rest would be needed as they would be used to constantly flying, as well they may get a day or more rest being transfered to the west. The Germans in my opinion may not win the air battle but they could easily challange it long enough for the Germans to win the ground campaign with a 5 to 1 advantage in soldiers, a 3 to 1 advantage in tanks, but a 10 to 1 disadvantage in planes (though 1/4 to 1/2 are allied bombers), but allies having many tanks and men in reserve. Logistics will slow Germany but they overcame it in holding Normandy, and all trucks from the USSR could help supply too. All in all, about one to five weeks later the allies are out of Europe once again.

 

How about Hitler accepting Stalin's truce offer in 42/43? Stalin had peace feelers out in Switzerland and would have accepted a status quo with the Germanys holding most of european russia in exchange for a truce. If Hitler had accepted I don't think the Allies would have even launched their invasion. They might have accepted a german withdrawl from france and a armitice.This was what Churchill was afraid of.

 

I suppose that would only have postponed things. Sooner or later the Gröfaz would have felt the need to go into another adventure. Not to mention the terrible loss of face to his allies, he was extremely sensitive to this, so he could not allow himself a diplomatic defeat of that magnitude.

 

There are two major problems with this:

First, transfering troops from, particularly the Northern Ukranian Front area, the East to the West will denude that front of mobile troops to stem Bagration when it does happen. The collapse of AGC will still occur only there will be nothing to stop the Russians other than their own logistical shortcommings.
Those troops transfering will take how long to reach France from Eastern Poland? Two weeks? By then the invasion is over and it becomes the stalemated post invasion period in which the Allies build strength ashore before demolishing the Germans in France. The invasion portion of the battle is already lost.
An associated problem would be that these units would arrive and be committed piecemeal. A battalion of panzers arriving on a train would be committed even if their infantry, artillery and, even maintenance assets had not arrived. History shows this was normal German practice. So, it is also likely these units would be used more for local counterattacks of limited tactical value and for beefing up units already committed to keep the line from collapsing than for a massed assault after a month or more of preparation.

The second problem is that these units are used to fighting in Russia. Now, to most uninitiated persons it would sound silly to suggest that troops skilled in fighting in Russia would actually be at a disadvantage in the West but, this is precisely the case.
Troops that have not fought in the West would not appreciate the overwhelming need for camoflauge and limiting daytime movement in the face of Allied air superiority. In the East the Red Air Force was never the threat the US / British tactical air forces are in the West. Road marches without heavy camoflauge and immediate turn outs to hide when aircraft appear will end up being shot to pieces. Many units transfering from the East failed initially to appreciate this problem.
Then, these units, particularly the mobile ones like panzers, would be used to attacking with minimal artillery and infantry support and without good intelligence and reconnissance. In the East the Red Army lacked the communications and cohesion to make a coordinated defense in depth in the face of a fast moving mobile offense.
In the West, the Allies got on their radios and telephones and within literally minutes had artillery falling on such attacks. Every defending unit knew in short order the Germans were comming and were fully alert to their presence. Immediate counterattacks could be expected as well from the Allies in such situations. In addition, Allied units were not ill-equipped and undermanned, short on ammunition and equipment as a rule. The Soviets often were on a per unit basis.

So, on the whole, transfering units from the East will do the Germans little good in the face of an invasion.

 

Couldnt have put it better myself.