German Gulag Prisoners Recall Their Postwar Ordeal

Thousands of Germans, including teenagers, were forced to toil in Stalin's labor camps after World War II. When they were finally were released their country had been divided into east and west. Karl Heinz Vogeley and Lothar Scholz recall how no one was interested in their fate when they returned.

Father! When Karl Heinz Vogeley climbs down from the train at 3:30 a.m. clutching his old wooden suitcase, his relatives are there to greet him. He runs toward the man who stands waiting on the platform at the Haldensleben train station -- and only then notices that it isn't his father, but his uncle. His father is standing off to one side, he has grown old. And they haven't seen each other for a long, long time. "Papa," the son asks, "where is mama?"



"Just come on home first," his father replies. But when Karl Heinz asks again, he says "mama isn't with us anymore."

'I Did Nothing Wrong': German Gulag Prisoners Recall Their Postwar Ordeal - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

 

Since the people on this forum are so well informed, I rather ask you then the web. After the war hunderds of thousands German (and other axis countries) were sent to Siberia. Most did not return and those which did, had to wait till the 50's. Why did the allies allow for this? Why didn't East Germany demand their sons to be returned. Didn't allies release their POWs shortly after the war? I'm not one to stand up for Germany, but I will stand up for humanity.

 

Your compassion is comendable, but sometimes 'realpolitik' trumps humanity.

First you must remember that the west had only a rough idea of how many German POW's in Russia there were. And to be fair the Allies were not entirely sure how many they had themselves at the end. German POW's in the US were sent back fairly quickly after the end of the war, but usually found themselves in a British or French POW cage instead. Former German soldiers were used as labor, mostly farm, well into 1948 and later. The west could hardly complain about the soviet POW's until they released thier own.

As for the East German's, they were in no position to complain with a large Soviet army of occupation in the country. Anyone who did protest would just as likely be invited to join them in siberia

With the outbreak of the cold war, and the perceived threat a 'Final' world war using atomic bombs, there simply more pressing matters than showing compassion to a defeated and reviled enemy.

 

I think this is more than a little complicated, since the Germans never declared war on the USSR, nor did the Soviets declare war on Germany the status of captured persons is questionable in the "legal" sense, humanity has little to do with it. Since the Soviets were the "attacked" party, I don’t think that step of declaring war was necessary, but were they (Germans) POWs or state sponsored invading armed bandits?

But that is neither here nor there, the Nazis were already mis-treating any Red soldiers or civilians they captured, claiming that the Soviets never signed the Geneva Conventions concerning POW treatment. It appears that they (Soviets) did sign it in 1929, but whether or not it was ratified by the Soviets, and published as a Soviet Standard is murky to say the least.

The Soviets used the excuse that the Germans were mistreating their military and civilian captives, and so turn about was "fair play" when they captured Axis personnel. The Nazis used the captive Soviet personnel as unpaid forced labor, and the Soviets used the captive Germans and Axis personnel in the same way. The French used German POWs in mine-clearing operations in France post-war, but the Nazis had deported French citizens for unpaid slave labor too, but most other western allies used captured Axis personnel as paid and volunteer labor, not unpaid forced labor during the war.

The great bulk of Axis personnel taken in the ETO were shipped to both Canada and the US, and at war’s end the USA transferred 740,000 of its Axis POWs to France to help in repairing war damage. But even then 1,000,000 German POWs remained in US controlled camps in Germany at the beginning of 1946 after being redesignated as either Displaced Persons (civilian), or Disarmed Enemy Personnel (military), but only 38,000 were still left in captivity at the beginning of 1947. The first Axis prisoners of war returned to their homes from the western camps in 1946, the last in 1949 I believe.

In some cases the captured Axis personnel in the Soviet Union didn't get released home until after Stalin’s death in the fifties, and some Japanese prisoners never were repatriated. The methods and operations of Stalin’s Soviet was perhaps best summed up by Sir Winston Churchill in 1939; "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest." In other words, what was good for Stalin and the USSR was what would be done, humanity or humane treatment has little to do with the Soviet policy of that age.

 

Well said!, but par for the course for the Saddle Tramp!

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm don't want to show any humanity toward members of the SS, Nazis, or any other "death"squads, etc. But the common inlisted soldier should have been released much sooner.

 

East Germany's government was a communist sponsored regime whereas in West Germany, Konrad Adenauer did press the return of all POW's starting in 1950 with final success in 1955. The USSR was not a signatory of the Geneva Convention and therefore did not feel it had to adhere to any humanitarian rules towards the Germans. Forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union was considered by the Soviet Union to be part of German war reparations for the damage inflicted by Nazi Germany on the Soviet Union during World War II. German civilians in Eastern Europe were deported to the USSR after World War II as forced laborers. Ethnic Germans living in the USSR were deported during World War II and conscripted for forced labor. German prisoners of war were also used as a source of forced labor during and after the war by the Soviet Union and the Western Allies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_of_Germans_in_the_Soviet_Union

 

As best as I can figure out, those 38,000 men that were held in Europe to the last were held while their status was completely understood and verified. Some were party officials, some were suspected war criminals, and some were simply criminals in the civilian world, not soldiers or party administrators. Sadly we (allies) did miss far too many real war criminals, and not the ones we "helped" evade justice either. Just missed them in the mess.

At least that is the best I can muddle out.

 

the Brits and the Americans had NO jurisdiction whatsoever over the Soviets during the 40-60's; look at the cheap shot excuses for the Berlin wall as an example, yes most Germans that were able to survive the harsh conditions at the Gulag were released in the 50's-early 60's, roughly a 10 year stint(s) were performed depending on what rank and branch of German service you were from. I lost a cousin on my mothers side as he died enroute home after captivity from the East due to non-attended wounds during the war .

 

All I can add is that the western Allies agreed to release their prisoners by the end of 1947, in the hope that the Soviets would reciprocate. They had a good idea that they wouldn't, of course.

 

Axis forces have attacked without declaration of war and have disobeyed international laws hence they can be considered as terrorists.

Furthermore, if we take into account truculence of Axis invasion forces at the East against civil population, Soviets were rather merciful. Obviously, Soviet officials could not produce evidence against each and every prisoner they have captured but Axis soldiers were illegally on their soil and have collectively committed unprecedented crimes against humanity. I don't know why they should be granted the privilege to get away with it just because the guilt couldn't be produced individually for each captured invader. Scale of the crime was such that letting them get away unpunished would have been utterly unjustified. Even today in modern countries people go behind bars for decades for far lesser crimes.

They should have considered bitter consequences before crossing Soviet borders with weapons in their hands.

 

Part of me agrees with you completely. However, since most POWs were released by the Allies much sooner, Russian should have followed. Other Eastern European nations did not have German POWs fixing their country and they were destroyed as bad if not worse the Russia. Poland was destoyred by Germany and Russia. Russia should have been the "bigger man" and followed the allies example.

 

You're right Tom: even a large part of me didn't agree with myself, but my view is that we have to make sure justice exists for everyone. Sometimes it is difficult to make trade-offs in life between opposing interests but the right of victims for their justice is much higher than the right of their executioners for more merciful treatment.

Regards

 

Tamino;
A totally understandable sentiment given the carnage and horror of the German invasion. Still-I don't think it right that the many were held to account for the sins of the few. Given the terror and total control that the NAZI police state exerted over it's citizens there was simply no choice for your average well meaning Soldat but to follow NAZI orders-no matter how repugnant. Now actual War Criminals and willing servants of the NAZI police state deserved no mercy... Stalin did not differentiate and many totally innocent people suffered simply because of their ethnicity. The Western Allies did try to sort out the criminals from the others with a certain degree of success. How many German soldiers were guilty of atrocities? Quite a few by this account; http://ebookstore.sony.com/ebook/da...illing-executioners/_/R-400000000000000076779 But if the Western Allies would have held every Soldat who had ever been assigned to a firing squad to account there would have been simply too many men in prison, and prisoners are NOT an economic asset in modern capitalist economies.
JeffinMNUSA
PS. In the East and to a certain degree in the West SS tags on a Soldat's uniform usually meant that that Soldat would not be making it to the prisoner collection points in the rear. The most infamous of the SS units was the Dirlewanger brigade in the East; http://stosstruppen39-45.tripod.com/id6.html . I read an account about some hardcore communist POWs who conned their way into the Dirlewangers with the ultimate plan of defecting en masse when the opportunity arose. The plan went without a hitch until the defection-when all the hardcore communists were all shot by the Red Army because of their unit patches.

 

Jeff, I appreciate your compassion for each and every human being; I am of the same view.

Yet, there were more than 20.000.000 dead in Soviet Union during the WWII, including 13,684,692 civilians. A large fraction of dead Soviet soldiers were POWs who have perished in brutal conditions! This indicates that helpless human beings without protection were the primary targets.

Every 5th Pole died during occupation!

To kill so many you need more than just few.

I have some insiders' knowledge about this subject: all of my elderly neighbors were either in Wehrmacht or SS at the eastern front or working in the 3rd Reich factories. Not only that all of axis soldiers knew what was going on but they were rather enthusiastic in »doing their duty«.

For western allies it was so easy to release »their« axis POWs serving in Western Europe where inhuman treatment was almost exclusively reserved »just« for Jews.

 

Tamino;
So who is to be held to account for the horrors? I would say "the authors"-as-with all totalitarian systems of social control-the perpetrators are under orders the slightest defiance of which can mean instant death. How did the SS get so "enthusiastic" about some of their more odious duties? Well they were locked into a system of social control that encouraged such an attitude. After a half century of reading about WWII I can find no one people to blame for the disaster-other than the malignant forms of humanity which curse every society.
JEffinMNUSA

 

What about the "freedom fighting" partisans in resistance movements across Europe? They did not declare war or observe international laws, yet they a vaunted as heroes. Germany was a state - or empire- who used war as an extension of policy by other means (as von Clausewitz says). Are the Americans terrorists for being in a war now? Come on now...

When? To whom? Tell that to the 2,000,000 + German women between the ages of 8 and 80 who were raped. If you want to talk about obeying international laws, the Soviets would not be at the top of my list!

P.S. Most German soldiers were not criminals. It's easy to judge after the fact with perfect hindsight, or if you are on the side of the victor, but true justice is more difficult to assertain. Remember that it is impossible for a soldier (or any other person) to be unbiased when putting his former enemies on trial. I think it's fair to say that all sides caused incidents that were of a criminal nature and that ended up hurting people - war makes ordinary men do things they normally wouldn't do. Human beings are capable of anything - history shows us that. That's why war itself is to blame, and those who make it.

 

Tamino and Belsar have pointed to it...Realpolitik. I have to say. I have a lot of sympathy with Tamino's explanation of real politik though. Or better still, understanding. I was not there. The powers that be of the time were.