Bad month in Afghanistan

One of the reasons for the Marjah offensive back in February of this year was to control the poppy production in that area and deny the money from it to the Taliban. Marjah is in the Nad Ali District of Helmand Province. About 10% of the global opium production came from the Marjah/Nad Ali area. That is a pretty substantial move.

 

bad for us... horrible for the afghanis for the last 40+ years. I think that's a country where there is no more hope for change.

There will always be a problem there. It's a country stuck in ancient times. No matter how long coalition forces stay there, very little will progress. Democracy as we know it is so unstable and is constantly threatened with fundamentalist nut jobs.

there is even talks that the current government is willing to negociate with the taiiban. That is obserd in my opinion. They want to make peace with the very same bastards who fight with Bin Laden. Not to mention the very same people who are responsible for causing the majority of the casualities of our troops.

If the current governmnet is willing to negociate with the enemy, than the US and coalition troops should get the hell out of there. They want to sleep with the enemy than they should deal with the consequences. Not us.

What a waste of time and human life.

 

Sending more and more troops isn't really going to solve much in the long run, sure it will help in the short term, but to actually achieve "victory" the only viable option is to win the hearts and minds of the people and get their military to be capable of defending themselves. Doing this not only eases the burden of our own military but denies the Taliban a major source of man power.

 

You have to provide security for the populace, remove the threat of violent retribution, before you can begin to win the populace to your side. More troops provides this capability. That was the principle behind the surge in Iraq.

Yes this is what you wish to achieve but how do you do it? First of all, people in these countries will side with the strongest tribe. It's a matter of the human beings strongest instinct, survival. The people may be uneducated but they're not stupid, they percieve and understand what it takes to survive. The bulk of the populace, will not cooperate or come over to your side if they do not percieve you as the eventual winner. They may not like the Taliban, but they know that if they cooperate with our side the Taliban will kill them and their families if given the opportunity. So, they sit on the sidelines and remain non-committal. Read the excerpt from the article I posted earlier.

"When will Obama pull out the troops? If the Taliban make it into our compound, they'll slaughter us all," the son translates for his mother. The daughters say that militants terrorize homes at night."

It takes time to build an army from scratch, especially in a place where education is lacking.
Read Biak's last post, then ponder all the handicaps the inability to read presents. The ability for an NCO to read TM's, orders, even generate a duty list. It is not as simple as it would appear on the surface.

sunny971 wrote:

True, no argument!

That's part of the problem, democracy as we know it is not necessarily what they want or need. It should be their own form of democracy, taking into consideration their culture, social mores, etc. They are a tribal culture and it will take years to develop a strong national identity. We forget that we in the United States didn't have a strong national identity until well after the Civil War. Prior to that the primary allegience was to the individual states and regions. So how do we expect them to develop a strong national identity in a few short years?
Our politicians complain about corruption, voting irregularities, voter turn out, etc. I can remember them saying the same things about Iraq in 2006 and 2008. They would complain about voter turnout but ignored the fact that the voter turnout in Iraq was several times higher than our normal turnout. How would we turn out to vote if we knew there was a good chance we and/or our family would be tortured and/or murdered for doing so. If you read the news from our elections during the same period you'd realize our problems were as great or greater than theirs and we didn't think our democracy broken. We hold them to a different higher standard.

Go back and study what happened in Iraq. When the Sunni's saw it was probable we were going to win they changed allegience to fight for our side. The great awakening. They ally themselves with the strongest tribe. It's a matter of survival and self preservation. Had we been unwilling to negotiate with the former insurgents and bring them over to our side the violence would never end. Remember as I posted earlier, the lower level fighters are mostly not fighting for ideological reasons. It's because it's their only way to earn money to support their families, it's because of terror tactics used against them and their loved ones, or it's because they allied themselves with the side that appeared most likely to win and they know what will happen if they do otherwise.
I wrote:
Most of the lower level fighters are a mix of Afganis that are fighting for money, with no ideological reasons or foreign fighters there for the Jihad. The former are the ones that can be turned and reintegrated into society, the latter have to be killed.

 

Gebirgsjaeger wrote in a post in another thread about his mates serving in Baghlan Province. I was interested and read a good deal about the Germans operations there. This is an excert from a story on a German Army Officer, Michael Andritzky.
(personal note, I get the impression that Andritzky is a smart, brave and overall excellent combat officer. I would be proud to serve under or alongside him. The underlined comment in the story below is mine!)

"in Mazar-i-Sharif, during a brief excursion into civilization for Andritzky. There is little evidence of the war at the Bundeswehr's largest base in Afghanistan, which has recycling services and even a carwash.
"Winning the hearts and minds of the Afghans. It's idiotic. This war is nothing but a huge waste of money," one soldier (obviously your typical rear echelon pogue soldier) said at the barbecue with Guttenberg. It was too much for Andritzky. The slim officer stood up in front of the defense minister and gave a small speech. "Mr. Minister, things aren't going as poorly in Afghanistan as everyone thinks. We've achieved quite a bit in the last few weeks. We live, eat and fight with the Afghans. They trust us. And they can see that we mean business."

"The convoy reached Shahabuddin. A man dressed in a black robe and a turban walked out to greet the convoy. Under his black beard, the man's face was so thin that it seemed to consist of nothing but skin and bones. "It's good that you're here," said the man, who called himself Commander Sher.
He reached for Andritzky's hand and pulled him across the dried-out furrows of a field in the shadow of three maple trees. Andritzky resisted the impulse to pull back his hand. Men in Afghanistan hold hands when they trust each other, and Sher trusted the German officer.
Andritzky refers to Sher as an APRP, an insurgent who has surrendered and is now participating in the Afghan Peace and Reintegration Program. Sher was a fighter for the warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, the head of one of the largest insurgent groups, with ties to al-Qaida and Pakistani intelligence. "Sher and his men are holding the position in Shahabuddin," said Andritzky. "It's a pilot project."
A fellow soldier told Andritzky that none of these men are angels. Until recently, Sher and his men used brutal methods, including the threat of slicing off ears, noses and heads, to exact protection money from their victims.
"We have to put the past behind us," Andritzky told the soldier. He noted that a shura, or council, of village elders decided that the men are now permitted to fight against the Taliban in Shahabuddin. So far, said Andritzky, everything had gone well. "We're grasping at a straw," he said, "but we have to try." Andritzky had the guns of the Germans' new allies marked with yellow tape, "so that everyone can see that they are now the good guys."

"Three weeks later the Taliban returned to Shahabuddin, and Andritzky -- speaking after the battle -- describes what happened next. About 60 Taliban fighters, with weapons at the ready and grenade launchers on their backs, attacked the village on foot. Andritzky rushed into the valley with his convoy. But the Taliban cut off their path, so Andritzky and his convoy came to a stop on a small dam, in front of the ruins of a bridge destroyed by the Taliban....Andritzky's interpreter's telephone rang. "For heaven's sake, do something, so they don't capture us alive," one of Sher's fighters shouted into the phone. Andritzky could hear the desperation in his voice....Andritzky recaptured Shahabuddin. The valley looked dead. There were no longer any children waving as they played in the ditches; there were no goats in the fields and no prayer rugs hanging out to dry. Sher and four of his men were dead. The Germans found their bodies near the maples."

Sher and his men died doing what they'd given their word to do. Protect the village against the Taliban, that's as loyal as you can get.

The military has been reporting for several months that the Taliban was getting tired in certain areas. Then they (certain Taliban groups)approached the government for talks. Our press reports it as if it's a weakness on the Afghan governments part, it's actually what we want to happen and what we've been working towards. No we don't want to make peace with Al-Queda or the religious zealots but that's only a small part of the insurgency.

Excerpts from another article on how the counter-insurgency is being waged.

"If we're going to succeed here, we have to experiment and take risks," said Brig. Gen. Lawrence D. Nicholson, the top Marine commander in Afghanistan. "Just doing what everyone else is doing isn't going to cut it."
The Marines are pushing into previously ignored Taliban enclaves. They have set up a first-of-its-kind school to train police officers. They have brought in a Muslim chaplain to pray with local mullahs and deployed teams of female Marines to reach out to Afghan women.
The Marine approach -- creative, aggressive and, at times, unorthodox -- has won many admirers within the military. The Marine emphasis on patrolling by foot and interacting with the population, which has helped to turn former insurgent strongholds along the Helmand River valley into reasonably stable communities with thriving bazaars and functioning schools, is hailed as a model of how U.S. forces should implement counterinsurgency strategy."
As it did in Anbar, the Corps is sending some of its most talented young officers to Helmand.
The result has been a degree of experimentation and innovation unseen in most other parts of the country. Although they account for half of the Afghan population, women had been avoided by military forces, particularly in the conservative south, because it is regarded as taboo for women to interact with males with whom they are not related. In an effort to reach out to them, the Marines have established "female engagement teams."
Made up principally of female Marines who came to Afghanistan to work in support jobs, the teams accompany combat patrols and seek to sit down with women in villages. Working with female translators, team members answer questions, dispense medical assistance and identify reconstruction needs.
Master Sgt. Julia Watson said the effort has had one major unexpected consequence. "Men have really opened up after they see us helping their wives and sisters," she said.
The Marines have sought to jump into another void by establishing their own police academy at Camp Leatherneck in Helmand instead of waiting for the U.S. military's national training program to provide recruits. The Marines also are seeking to do something that the military has not been able to do on a national scale: reduce police corruption by accepting only recruits vouched for by tribal elders.
"This is a shame culture," said Terry Walker, a retired Marine drill instructor who helps run the academy. "If they know they are accountable to their elders, they will be less likely to misbehave."
Then there's what Marines call the "mullahpalooza tour." Although most U.S. military units have avoided direct engagement with religious leaders in Afghanistan, Nicholson has brought over Lt. Cmdr. Abuhena Saifulislam, one of only two imams in the U.S. Navy, to spend a month meeting -- and praying with -- local mullahs, reasoning that the failure to interact with them made it easier for them to be swayed by the Taliban.
At his first session with religious leaders in Helmand, the participants initially thought the clean-shaven Saifulislam was an impostor. Then he led the group in noontime prayers. By the end, everyone wanted to take a picture with him.
"The mullahs of Afghanistan are the core of society," he said. "Bypassing them is counterproductive."

 

This might be of interest;

Julia Gillard's speech to parliament on Australia's deployment to Afghanistan

Julia Gillard's speech to parliament on Australia's deployment to Afghanistan | The Australian

and this;

Uzbekistan "6+3" Afghanistan Proposal Deserves Washington's Attention

http://www.scandoil.com/moxie-bm2/n...63-afghanistan-proposal-deserves-washin.shtml

 

Good info, thanks for the links!
Gilliard, based upon his remarks, is one of the few politicians that understands the situation, what is required and how it needs to be achieved.

The second article is good also, he makes some good points, identifies some real problems. but is somewhat flawed in his analysis of why Washington hasn't embraced their proposal.
Yes Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan should be consulted, their proposals given strong consideration and adopted where practical because they have a huge vested interest in the stability of their neighbor. They are culturally, and geographically more in tune with the needs and requirements of the region.

 

Today makes a week since 3/5 started getting hit hard. They actually lost their first casualty of this deployment when LCpl. John T. Sparks, 23, was killed on 08 October. Last Wednesday, 13 October 3/5 lost four more Marines:
Pfc. Victor A. Dew, 20
LCpl. Joseph E. Rodewald, 21
LCpl. Phillip D. Vinnedge, 19
Cpl. Justin J. Cain, 22
Additionally, a Marine from 1/8, LCpl. Raymond L.A. Johnson, 22, was killed that day.
Since then five more 3/5 marines have been killed:
14 October
LCpl. Joseph C. Lopez, 26
LCpl. Alex E. Catherwood, 19
LCpl. Irvin M. Ceniceros, 21
15 October
LCpl. James D. Boelk, 24
16 October
Sgt. Ian M. Tawney, 25

On Sunday, 17 October, Cpl. Jorge Villarreal Jr.,22, with another Marine unit 3/12, was killed. They say a picture is worth a thousand words, well a photographer was along for his last patrol, he wasn't just a name and number. These pictures convey more than words ever can.
Jorge Villarreal | Death of a Marine | The Australian

A British soldier with, 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance), was killed yesterday 19 October and three as yet unidentified NATO soldiers/Marines have died, two of them yesterday.

It's a very bad month. Pray for their families.

 

My first posting was 33 (EOD). Brings it closer.

 

Vietnam, anyone?

Timewarp to 1968?

How, exactly, do we 'win'?

What do we get for our expenditure of blood?

Will terrorism ever truly be wiped out as a force to be reckoned with?

Or is this another Orwellian "fringe war", where the military inustrial conglomerate simply wage it for the sake of industry?

I support our troops, but can we keep going for ever and a day?

 

I understand completely. The names change but the men remain the same.

 

I'm sorry to say this but in my opinion we will never win the "war" in Afghanistan. In 2001 we were riding high on seeking our revenge against Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban. We defeated the Taliban quickly and Osama was hiding in the mountains near Tora Bora. Our military leaders requested and were denied the use of anti-personnel mines in the routes leading from Afghanistan to Pakistan to prevent Bin Laden's escape. Hind sight is always 20/20.

I have to say this, that entire area will never fall under a "government." They are nomads, warlords and clans with no respect of government or our "western" ways. The government they know is corrupt. We need to bring all the troops home (U.S. and others). Granted the Taliban and Bin-Laden will see it as a victory but in the long run no one really wins in war.

 

The name of the British soldier with 33 (EOD) has been released, he was Acting Corporal David Barnsdale, 24.

The Marine that was killed on the 17th, Cpl. Jorge Villarreal Jr.,22, was actually with 1/11 not 3/12 as the Australian article stated. This is per the 1st Marine Division Official Release and since that is 1/11's parent unit I think they are correct.

Two More Marines have been killed:
19 October-Staff Sgt, Joshua Cullins, 28, a Marine Corps reservist, EOD, serving with 3/6.

19 October-LCpl. Francisco R. Jackson, 24, another Marine with 1/11.

 

Cpl. Justin J. Cain, 22

 

Volga Boatman,

Vietnam, anyone? NO

Timewarp to 1968? NO

How, exactly, do we 'win'? The million dollar question

What do we get for our expenditure of blood? Depends on the eventual outcome.

Will terrorism ever truly be wiped out as a force to be reckoned with?
No, but we can hopefully make it harder for the terrorists to plan and carryout their attacks.

Or is this another Orwellian "fringe war", where the military inustrial conglomerate simply wage it for the sake of industry? No, terrorism is a real threat. I do not doubt that there are those in industry, profiteering on the situation, but that was the case in WWII also. Who here would deny that war was worth the costs?

I support our troops, but can we keep going for ever and a day?
You are correct we can't keep going forever and a day. The hard question is when do you call it quits or when do you decide to persevere? Only in retrospect is the correct answer clear. History is repleat with examples of one side deciding it was fruitless to continue when the other side was ready to collapse. But for the lack of one last push, defeat would have been victory. The opposite is also true, the fight was continued when victory was no longer possible. Unfortunately, we're looking forward instead of back, hindsight is 20/20.

 

I am opposed to the Afghan war, I say pull all NATO forces out. It's the Afghan's civil war not our war.

 

A shout out for all the Coalition Forces in Afghanistan and Iraq and with UN Forces in smaller theaters. Thank you all very much for your service.
A special shout out for the 3rd of the Fifth, USMC.
"Dark Horse"
"Get Some"
Stay safe Ladies and Gentlemen.

You all have done a great job disrupting their Command and Control, therefore, their ability to take the fight to Europe,
USA and other civilized corners of the globe and for that we should all be thankful indeed!
You add to your unit's storied history and tradition daily. God Bless you all.

From wiki:
World War I
* Battle of Belleau Wood
* Battle of Château-Thierry
* Meuse-Argonne Offensive
* Battle of Soissons
Battle of Saint-Mihiel
Banana Wars
* Occupation of Nicaragua
World War II
* Battle of Guadalcanal
**Battle of Edson's Ridge
* Battle of Cape Gloucester
* Battle of Peleliu
* Battle of Okinawa
Korean War
* Battle of Pusan Perimeter
* Battle of Inchon
* Battle of Chosin Reservoir
Vietnam War
* Operation Union I & II
* Operation Swift
* Battle of Hue
Operation Desert Storm
Operation Sea Angel
Operation Iraqi Freedom
* 2003 invasion of Iraq
* Operation Phantom Fury
Operation Enduring Freedom

 

The arguments of the war I have given up on but I do not give up on supporting those who put themselves in harms way on behalf of us citizens that are enjoying our freedom. I thank you Mr. Price for your close watch on the costs our soldiers are paying on behalf of us back home. I pray for their safe return and successful adjustment to civilian life when they finally get to come home. I am fearful that some have been at it so long....that adjustment to a not so nice economy may be difficult. In the politics of it all I will try to support what will help and preserve the future welfare of them and their families.

 

I, too, would like to thank USMCPrice. Every Soldier, Sailor or Marine who sacrifices their lives for their country deserves to be remembered and honored. I sincerely hope that, regardless of where any of us stand on the politics of any given war or military action, we would all agree on that point.