Germans bypass Stalingrad

back to the question.....................*nerd mode on* No stalingrad had to because secure it was the key to stoping traffic in the volga and the germans had to secure thier flanks so stalingrad had to be secured *nerd mode off*

 

The prefered method for taking a city was to envelope it completely, cutting it off from any supply and support. The splitting up of AGS to capture both the Cauvasus oil fields and Stalingrad simaltaneously left not enough troops to do it the proper way, but rather by frontal attack. A battle of attrition went against every precept reguarding the Blitzkreig way of war. Germany invaded Russia in 1941 to destroy it to take its resources, In 1942 Germany went for Russia's resources in order to defeat Russia. When you start chasing your tail, you do not get a meal, only tired out.

 

Interesting that it was again that man AH who made changes to the plans...

In Führer Directive No. 45, dated 23 July 1942, Adolf Hitler outlined the goals for Operation Braunschweig. The German forces were to advance towards the Caucasus (Operation Edelweiss) and Stalingrad (Operation Braunschweig).

This combined operation was known as Plan Blue, but from 30 June 1942 onward it was known as Operation Braunschweig. The plans following the original Plan Blue (originally named Blue II and Blue II) were renamed to Operation Clausewitz (1942) and Operation Dampfhammer.

Hitler had personally intervened in the plans for this operation, and ordered a split in Army Group South. This division of Army Group South had caused alarm in the General Staff, and Hitler was warned repeatedly about the dangers this division entailed.

Operation Braunschweig - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The spitting of AGS was not decisive,IMHO it only was an admission of the facts,and these being:the aim of Fall Blau was to capture the oilfields of the Caucasus,to do this,the left flank had to be guarded on the Wolga :the right bank of the Wolga had to be in German hands ,the point was :what had to have the priority? What had to come first ? The Caucasus or the Wolga ?

 

You can see Tolstoi's fairytale here:
How Much Land Does a Man Need? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is relative to the thread. The meaning is that a if man (Hitler) is too creedy, the result is his death.

 

Unfortunately the original directives are not available on the site at the end of this posting

From the site below...

"Directive 41 is notable for its lack of focus on Stalingrad."

Direective 45: "Despite the failure to destroy the Red Army, Hitler began the new directive, "In a campaign which has lasted little more than three weeks, the broad objectives outlined by me for the southern flank of the Eastern front have been largely achieved. Only weak enemy forces from the Timoshenko Army Group have succeeded in avoiding encirclement and reaching the further bank of the Don."

biography: Adolf Hitler World War II Fhrer Headquarters directives

 

As to bypassing Stalingrad and turning south toward the oil in the Baku I field, that would leave an enemy on your left flank with a T-34 tank production center still in operation. Not a good plan. The Nazis were also rather deficient at crossing major water obstacles without capturing a bridge. Their combat engineers only managed to build emergency bridges over smaller rivers, and they took forever to do the deed. If the opposite bank was defended, I’ve never seen an instance where that was accomplished in the entire war. They could build pontoon bridges across rivers if both shores were under control and they needed a bridge, but not if one of the shores was still in enemy hands.

Let’s not forget that the original Baku fields on the west shore of the Caspian were sabotaged by the Soviets themselves as they left the area in anticipation of the Nazis actually getting to the fields as they did at Maikop and Grozny. At Baku, there were ten defense zones built around the city and surrounding area to prevent possible German invasion. Taking into consideration the growing demand for oil, the Baku workers reached the record level of oil extraction in 1941 – 23.482 million tons, and until Operation Barbarossa, Hitler received some of that. Then just in case Hitler’s troops were not stopped before they reached West Baku, Stalin entrusted one man with making sure that the Nazis could not avail of the city’s legendary oil. Nikolai Baibakov. By the autumn of 1942, 764 wells had been stopped up with cement and prepared for destruction and 81 sets of drilling equipment together with the personnel were sent to East Baku (Baku II), on the opposite shore of the Caspian Sea. Stalin reportedly told Baibakov that; "...if one drop of oil reaches the Nazis from Baku you will be shot. If the wells cannot be re-opened when we repel the Nazis, you will be dug up and shot again!"

None of the captured fields ever sent much oil to the Nazis, in fact the pipe they had brought to Maikop/Grozny were captured by the Soviets when they returned. Those German pipes were then used to ship the petroleum east to the Soviets! After the wells in Baku I were capped off with deep injections of cement, the Soviets transferred their petroleum production to the known but non-developed Baku II fields on the east shore of the Caspian (Turkmenia). The Baku I area didn't get back into full production until post war, when the Soviets themselves repaired the damage they had done when they withdrew.

 

Clint, my understanding of German bridging operations is quite the opposite with numerous operational and photographic examples available. The Germans in the period 1939-1942 where very skilled at river assaults (as shown in Poland, France and during Barbarossa) and VERY rapidly following up with expanding a bridgehead and throwing up pontoon bridges. Remember that the PzIV was their heaviest tank in that period a pontoon bridge is sufficient for that vehicle. Lone Sentry: TM-E 30-451 Handbook on German Military Forces: Bridging Equipment: Engineer Equipment: Equipment
Notable examples are the Meuse crossing at Sedan (especially the role of IR Grossdeutschland), the numerous forced river crossings of the Dvina, Dnieper and others during Barbarossa. The fact is that the German Army of 1939-1942 was able to effect forced river crossings off the fly faster than the Western Allies of 1944-45 because of doctrinal method and trained skills. The rate of advance of the German Army was rarely adversely effected by river barriers in the period I noted.

 

Nothing the size of the Volga. That wouldn't have been a doable event, there was NO bridge in the area. Even the Soviets used ferry barges and such on it. I just don't see them being able to breach the Volga and interdict the Red Army on the east bank in any sustainable fashion is all I'm saying. If you look at the maps of the campaigns in Europe, you will see the Nazis use the rivers as "flank" protectors, until they can take a bridge if the river is a major, wide, deep and fast flowing one.

You and I can disagree, that is all well and good. Having the equipment and applying it with speed and skill are two different subjects.

 

I looked at the Volga in the area in question via Google earth and honestly I didn't realize the width of the river. It looks like its about 2+ miles across at its narrowest point North of Stalingrad, looks pretty impassable by 1942 standards to me.... My mistake.

 

Google earth is a wonderful tool is it not.
I think I've heard that there are even WWII maps embedded in it but I have found them yet.

 

Did the city of Voronezh feature on Hitlers plans, I have an old military magazine from 1977 with an article on this city and its importance in the rail supply munitions to the south of Russia, its says the Germans failure to capture this vital city may of cost them Stalingrad ?.

 

Von Kleist claimed that on 1 April 1942 Hitler call him for a meeting and told him that they have to take the oil fields of Caucasus otherwise they have to stop fighting soon because of lack of gasoline (this decision brought serious problems to Germans and the irony is that it was proved to be wrong as Germans fought without the Baku oil till 1945).
The economy heads of Nazis wished to proceed in occupation of the oil of Baku and the other precious minerals and ore of the area though the military heads wished to destroy more Russian divisions.
There were some not realistic plans the South German Armies to moved to the East and then North so to attack Moscow or even the industrial area between Moscow and Ural from the South!
There were 2 objectives, 1) from Rostov to Tiflis via Caucasus or/and 2) to Baku.

Although it looks that the German could by pass Stalingrad in fact this could not achieved.
According to most of the Germans commanders the most serious problem they faced and the one which made decreased the fight ability of their war machine was the lack of gasoline. Generally the supplies arrived to the front units with many difficulties.
Another reason was the extremely hard defense of the Russians.
They have learned many lessons the previous year and they have changed. A Russian commander said we were not same like before and also Germans were not same (the meaning was that the Russians were better and the Germans worse because they have lost many of the well trained soldiers and the replacements were not of equal quality).
Russians sent 800 airplanes to Groznyy airports and although this number was not 100% operational they caused big problems to the marching Germans.
Von Kleist cannot take this pressure from above because he has given his airplanes and almost all the antiaircraft artillery to the 6th Army which was attack to Stalingrad.
Also he has given the mountain units he had to the 17Th army which marched following the coastal road of Black Sea.
All the above circumstances made the attack of the Germans to fail.
Another thing too. The raid to Dieppe. Hitler realized that Allies could try a landing in Europe and trying to strength the defense of Festung Europa, he recall 1st SS panzer Liebestandarte and the Gross Deutschland unit to Europe (although GD while moved via train because the pressure of the Russians became too hard, they stopped and continue to fight in the Eastfront).

 

The reason to go south was for the oil, Germany was facing a crippling shortage and the Caucausus were the answer. The Soviets had concentrated most of their army around Moscow and were quite prepared for a German attack. The original plan Blue called for a two stage attack south. The first was to reach the Stalingrad area, and then once the flanks were secured then head south. When Stalin ordered an offence at Kharkov and the Germans beat it easily, the way was open to Stalingrad. Hitler got greedy and ordered the tank force destined for Stalingrad to head south. The logistics ensured that ithe tank army could not help and the Soviets got time to begin preparing defences. The Caucauses were simply beyond German capacity. Either the Germans can cover the Volga flank or send troops south. If the flank is open then the Soviets can launch an offence at the flank or there are not enough troops to take the objectives. A major issue for the Germans is that the mountains are not suited for mobile warfare.

 

I agree. Was Army Group B not turned around after initially being sent to the Caucasus? Seems if though I recall Hitler having some indecision here and recalling forces from the south to Stalingrad.

FT

 

It was the the tank forces that were assisting 6th army that were sent south at first, they didnt help any and then were sent back towards Stalinngrad.

 

Going first to the Wolga and than to the Caucasus was impossible.
Going first to the Caucasus and than to the Wolga also was impossible .

 

I believe the operation was doable.

Bypassing Stalingrad was at one point on the table, With the need to only leave behind a blocking force made up largely of tanks and artillery.

For those that say that they should have gone at Moscow to destroy the infrastructure and factories, Well how exactly would you do that with out complete control over Moscow? You cant, And gaining complete control of Moscow at the time would have crippled you more then what they were after Stalingrad. most of the main factories were sent behind the Urals, So much so that any factory you knocked out in range that still made something wouldn't have made a lick of difference on the Soviets ability to wage war. Knocking out the infrastructure wouldnt have helped so much either, bombs were not very effective at destroying rail way lines unless you commited 1,000+ heavy bombers, Something Germany did not have. So simply Moscow was a no go.

They had one of 3 options:
a) Attack and secure Murmansk/Karelian region and Leningrad.
b) Use limited attacks and retreats to secure a more defensible line
c) Attack towards Stalingrad/Caucasus

With those options b would be unlikely, Sitting around was just something no one did then. A and C were the only choices, While A would have been the safer choice C could also secure resources for the long term (as well as denying resources to the Soviets, Not that they needed them but still forced them to divert resources to gain other sources).

As for the river crossings, well simply neither side really had the ability to invade across a river such as the Volga with out having a bridge head on the other side first or it being undefended.

But back to bypassing Stalingrad, Well simply they should have done it, The tank factory producing the T-34 there still could have been damaged by use of artillery and bombers, They did not have to go into the city. by not putting all those forces into Stalingrad they would have reserves capable of clearing out the German side of the Volga/Don rivers. Forces would also be able to advance along the Volga towards Astrakhan/Caspian Sea, Cutting off any retreat or reinforcement of the limited Soviet forces in the Caucasus. The forces in there while not being short of fuel or food, Would be unable to receive supplies in tanks, artillery, most ammunition etc, They would over time be wiped out, A lightning fast strike into the Caucasus was not needed as most of what was there was a few small armies on the border of Iran/Turkey or those that were evacuated from the Crimea which lacked any heavy weapons.

So the Caucasus could fall with limited forces needed, Maybe a single panzer division, couple motorized/infantry divisions and the Italian mountain divisions. once that was done Russia's ability to 'wipe out' an entire army would be severely decreased, The only reason they got the 6th army in Stalingrad, or the various other armies in the Caucasus/Don river area's was they were allowed to build up supplies and strike from multiple points, Be securing the Volga/Don line they have a single land bridge which can easily be turned into a meat grinder.

 

there is one problem, tanks need infantry to hold ground. Also the Allies were established in Iran which would allow supplies to go through there. There is also the ability to transport via boat across the Caspain. Finally the area around Voronezh was held by Hungarians and Italians and was a place the Soviets could have outflanked the Volga/Don line.

 

To the first point, With the 1.3 million men involved in Case blue I'm sure that they would be able to find a few to spare.

Second point, While they had taken control of the Persian corridor they had yet to fully establish the supply line. In any case they could receive supplies, But hat about extra men? No use getting all those supplies if you have no one to use them. As for across the Caspian, Well quite simply the Germans/Italians would do as they did in the Black Sea, Transport over numerous Submarines, S boas, R boats and Torpedo boats etc. Add in use of the Luftwaffe and the limited shipping capacity in the Caspian would be crushed.

Third point, Yes the Soviets could flank through there, But you shouldn't assume that it would be the knock out blow that would destroy AGS. With the Soviets and Ger,ans only being able to field limited forces at the Volga/Don land bridge the Axis would have reserves, Reserves that could be put up against your proposed Soviet thrust, But that would be a single thrust that the Axis could concentrate on.. Were as through out WWII the Soviets had there best and greatest success using multiple points of attack.

Would they break the Hungarian/Italian force? Sure, For a time but then they will run into German infantry and armored reserves, The Hungarian and Italian forces would regroup and it would become an organized battle with support elements.

Just to specify were the Russians would aim for, Im assuming you mean between the Don and Donets rivers? As trying to drive any deeper, Say for example Kharkov could prove very dangerous. It would expose there flanks entirely allowing them to be encircled by reserves from AGS and forces from AGC.