Germans bypass Stalingrad

Richthoffen's state on August 20th was as follows:
1,071 aircraft, 643 (or 60 percent) of them operational
247 medium bombers (Heinkel He Ills and Junkers Ju 88s, just 143 of them operational
Already during August 1942 Richthofen's fleet was not capable of concentrating bombers in sufficient numbers to effectively attack targets at Caucasus.
Soviet forces around Grozny received additional fighter, ground-attack, and bomber units, which started operations in the end of August. By the end of September Soviet air forces around Grozny were ready for combat.
When Nazis realized that they couldn't capture Baku, it was too late even to destroy its oil facilities.

 

No the Manych doesn't go anywhere near Astrakhan, But as I already stated and proved that it didn't need to, Than Manych connects onto a canal which then connects onto the Kuma river which leads directly to the Caspian, We already had this discussion about the ability of the Axis to field a flotilla in the Caspian and I was coming around to believing your argument until I found this route showing it to be possible. We already went over this, I proved it possible, So why bring it up again??

As for the barges, That would honoustly have to have been the easiest operation of the eastern front for the Axis forces. Barges can take a slow route up the coast or simply get loaded onto a ship and shipped there. transporting barges is probably the least difficult problem, Especially in the Black Sea were the Luftwaffe can keep a protective eye on the transports (the Soviet ships started to stay far away after they lost several destroyers to Luftwaffe attacks)

 

As I stated Richtofen was slated to go the Med around October.

 

re van nooble:
An alt barge route ran up the Dneiper river, through the Pripet, through the Bug locks at Brest, into the heart of Germany. ( the Brest Locks are now disused.) You can use coal burning tugs to save oil

 

Theory is great, but the Germans had difficulty supplying operations more then 200 or so miles. You are still talking about an 800 mile round trip across desert and a very limited motorized capacity.

 

800 mile round trip?? I mentioned the use of barges as a way of cutting down the round trip. The trip could then be cut down to top's 450 mile round trip but as low as 400 miles by use of the Sal river that also ran off the Don as did the Manych.

So I believe that puts the operation within the Axis capabilities of about 200 mile range.

 

until winter time then what

 

... Disaster! They would have been cut from supply lines and too far away to escape the encirclement. In that case the war would have been decided in the early spring 1943.

 

Actually in winter they wouldl revert to a seven game winner takes all hockey summitt & send in the Canadians...Summit Series - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Except that the Soviets would first have to get across the Volga. So no guarantee of collapse of Axis forces due to lack of supplies, In fact seeing as the force needed to be stationed there would be not so massive they would end up delivering supplies faster then they could be used, providing a stock pile for the Winter when it came.

 

Okay, in that case, Nazis could have captured the oilfields of Caucasus. New lucky owners of Caucasus Califate are: Ali Musa al-Hitler and Habib Mustafa al-Göring.

 

If barges are so easy why didnt they use them on the Dneiper from Riga. What is to prevent the Soviets from building their own fleet on the Caspian. I guess I dont understand why you say the Germans can do everything easily, but everything is hard for the Soviets.

 

Honoustly no idea, Maybe they didn't need them as land transport was able to handle the need.

As for the part about me thinking the Germans can do everything easily and the Soviets cant, Well thats not true.

1. I believe the Germans could have cut off the Caucasus before the Soviets could have shifted enought forces into the region to prevent it.
2. I believe the Germans could have fielded a small naval flotilla to gain naval superiority in the Caspian sea.
3. I believe the Soviets would be unable to build up a fleet large enough quick enough to based on the fact that it takes time to build a ship and all the places they could build them would be in range of bombers. They would never get very far if they had to keep starting from scratch. They only thing they could build in short time is barges, and a barge loaded with some AA and a few pieces of artillery is plain and simple targeting practice for the Axis.
4. I believe that the Axis could build a large enough fleet of barges for use on the Don, Manych, Kuma and Sal rivers. Building a barge is far less time consuming then that of a naval vessel.

There will always be area's were one country could do something in short amount of time that another couldn't. Otherwise we would have seen the Japanese producing and fielding a fleet of similar size to that of the USN in WWII.

But seeing as most Soviet forces in the area were poorly equipped and supplied, With many fielding WWI era equipment, Including the Caspian flotilla fleet then they had little chance with out the forces from around Moscow arriving in time. If they had proper equipment, Good supplies, dedicated air support on both sides of the Caspian, and a modern fleet of naval vessels in the Caspian then naturally the Soviets could end up very well having most of the control, Enough to keep sea based travel between certain ports.

Cheers, von_noobie

 

But don't you understand that your beliefs are in complete collision with historic facts?

From your post it is possible to draw only one conclusion: Nazis had superior equipment but Soviets as people were superior compared to Nazis! In other words: in eality, Russians were genuine superior Aryans.

 

It may not follow along the lines of what occurred historically, But that does not mean it was not possible. In all reality this thread has gone the lines of a what if, the simple fact that it starts of by proposing that the Germans bypass Stalingrad means it likely should have been placed into the Alternative history section. As such with it being along the lines of a what if then usually you will always have posts conflicting with historical events =).

The biggest reason for the failure was a failure in command, Starting with Hitler.

No that is not what my post implies, It implies that had the Soviets had the proper modern equipment and sufficient air power that they would have stood a fighting chance, If I wanted to imply that the Russians were superior to that of the Germans then the WWI era naval vessels would have controlled the Caspian and the Soviet air power would only need to use bi-planes to get aerial superiority. ​

 

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Prob. because the Dneiper is a few hundred miles south of Riga

 

I put the wrong river, but my point was the Germans did not use barges for supply even when it was easier.

 

Didn't they use them heavily in NA?

And simply in some instances Barges may have been more troubling then there worth.. Doesn't mean they would be used full stop.

 

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Your point is still not clear .....
Dnieper River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Well they did in Germany and in the West. I think there were some used on the Danube as well. However they took a lot out of service and lost quite a few in the prep for Sea Lion. I'm not sure building new ones were high on the list for German production either.