Whats Your Favorite Sherman?

The Sherman is usually considered the laughing stock of tanks. But what about the mainstay of American tanks in WW2 and even Korea?

Personally, I will go with the Easy-Eight.

 

My vote goes to those Shermans 'Fireflys' equipped with 17 pounder guns used to good effect by the British Guards Armoured during the Market Garden campaign...

 

Strange though this may seem. Although I like the Sherman Firefly (big guns always impress me), I kinda like the Sherman Flail. Watching D-Day film of flails in action, You've just got to appreciate the guys in the tank. I mean, drive a tank deliberately into a mine field and just sit there waiting for the boom. And you get to be first in line. First up the front. First through the obstacle. First to get hit. Any one who can do that gets my appreciation.

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"Two kinds of people are staying on this beach, the dead and those who are going to die. Now let's get the hell out of here!" - Colonel George Taylor at Omaha Beach

 

You guys are right about the Firefly. It was quite the Sherman. I voted for the Easy-Eight because of its good use in Korea actually. But yeah, the firefly was nice...

[ 04. November 2002, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: dasreich ]

 

Firefly - no contest.
If only we'd had more of them......

 

The black and burnt-looking one with the 88mm hole in the side gets my vote!!

 

Any tank which can take on a formation of seven Tigers, including one commanded by Michael Wittman, and still come out the winner. HAS to have my vote
Sherman Firefly

 

Don't forget that Wittmann's Tiger was KO'd by a Cromwell, not a Sherman. And possibly even a PIAT fired by a good old PBI, if some accounts are true!

The Firefly was a good tank, with a good gun - better than anything the US Army was using at the time. It wasn't just limited to the Guards Armoured; all British tank units operating Shermans had them; 1 in every 4 tanks was a Firefly. That went up towards the end of the war, but not enough as Martin suggests.

The Sherman Dozer tank gets my vote - proved its worth time and again; in the Bocage, and for clearing Club Route, as XXX Corps tried to push up to Arnhem.

 

A Cromwell and Piat.......hmmmmmm interesting thought. In any case adequate camo for a Sherman or whatever was imperitive. It was also incredibly stupid for Whitmann and the other Tigers to cover open ground as they did.

E

 

Sorry Erich - I was thinking of the Villers-Bocage engagement, when his Tiger was immobilised in one of the streets. I should have explained this further!

Credit for his eventual KO in August 44 is split between a Firefly from the Canadians, a Typhoon and a M18 (17 pdr) Achillies from Nortants Yeomanry. As I am sure you know!

 

Does anybody know which Sherman was equipped with a 105mm gun? Im pretty sure it was used in infantry engagements.

 

Two prototype 105mm howitzer-equipped Shermans were built on M4A4 chassis in November 1942 for evaluation in the close support role.

The model went into production in 1943. The following models were produced ; -

M4(105mm) & M4(105mm)HVSS : 1641 built.
M4A3(105mm) : 500 built.
M4A3(105mm)HVSS : 2539 built.

Not to be confused : the M4A3E2 Assault Tank built for infantry support in the ETO ; despite many modifications the 75mm gun was retained.

All this information is from Chamberlain & Ellis' 'British & American Tanks of WWII' (A&AP, 1969 ).

 

There are indeed many accounts of how Michael Wittman meet his end

However there is only one account which is backed up by eye-witnesses from Wittmans own unit

Here is an account of the battle from a web-site I found, which gives plenty of sources to back up its account

Michael Wittmann's Death
Posted by Chantal on June 27, 1999

There are a lot of conflicting and spurious accounts re Wittmann's death on Aug. 8 1944 - (just under 2 months after his famous action at Villers-Bocage )
- from surrounded by 5 Canadian Shermans, to Polish Shermans, artillery/naval strike, Typhoon hit etc., etc.

But contrary to the oft quoted Typhoon strike, the latest and the ONLY one that can be substantiated with facts is, that he WAS taken out with 2 shots to his right rear flank
by a single Sherman Firefly belonging to Sgt. Gordon (gunner; Trooper Joe Ekins), from 3.Plt., A.Sqn., 33.Arm. Bgd., 1.Northamptonshire Yeomanry.

This Firefly was hidden in a tree line with a troop of standard 75mm Shermans to Wittmann's starboard side N.East of Gaumesnil as he moved north in command Tiger "007" (ex Heinz Von Westerhagen's, whom he had succeeded as Bttn.CO on July 10 when the former suffered complications to a head wound, hence
inheriting his Tiger). Wittmann's was the last vehicle in the advance, through an open field parallel to the N158, toward the reported 1.Polish Arm.Div. reported
to be ahead at Aignan de Cramesnil.

He did so along with 6 Tigers, 5 of which were initially KO'd and 1 abandonned in this unexpected ambush, with the last KO'd a little later (source: "TIC
2"; p.259 text, p.290 pic., + Agte; pp.423-433 text {p.425 in particular}, p.477 pic, + pp.182-183 "Panzers in Normandy - Then & Now {a little dated and still claiming 5
Shermans and only }, + p.46-53 "After the Battle" mag no. 48 - "Michael Wittmannn's Last Battle" - which even has transripts of British I/C and radio
traffic decribing the incidents).

The only minor glitch is that the British claim less kills than Tigers found, but in the heat of battle no one would really be keeping meticulous score).

The Agte book describes the action concisely even down to recollections from Hans Hoflinger who witnessed the hits into the side wall around the fuel tank area that initially
lifted and displaced the turret onto the hull top, and began a fire, before ammo cooking off sent it skyward to its final resting place behind the vehicle. The penetrations and
subsequent explosions instantly killed the crew (Agte p.425 & 429). The vehicle was obviously still moving when hit and the explosions have broken both tracks while it
continued rolling off them till slewing to a halt some 20 metres further on.

The Germans for a long time refused to believe he had been killed and listed him as "MIA" for morale purposes though most officers in s.Pz.Abt.101 knew he had been
killed. His roadside grave, were he was buried by local civilians in a communal pit, was found in 1983 based on research being done for "Panzers in Normandy - Then &
Now". The research led to the German War Graves Commission searching the area with metal detectors, finding the bodies and relocating his and his crew's remains to La
Cambe War Cemetary where they still lie today.

Why the Typhoon myth still persists when so much evidence now 'proves' it was a lone Firefly, is a mystery? The Germans apparently began it as a propaganda exercise to
refuse admitting to the troops and public he was beaten by another tank, and made his end sound more martyr-like going down to the dreaded Jabo.

Apart from everything else stacked against it, the Typhoon account suffers even further, if not fatally, due to no sorties being recorded as having flown in that area on that
day.

The engine deck damage reported by a French farmer, of questionable reliabilty anyway, could easily, and most likely, have resulted from the fuel tanks going up and the
subsequent ammo explosions following the 17pdr penetration.

On pp.425-430 of Agte's book the story is presented fairly conclusively. Wittmann at first wasn't going to go along on the attack but at the last minute changed his mind as he
felt the platoon leader Heurich was too inexperienced - this being only his first action. Apparently Wittmann was uneasy about the probe, but put this aside out of a sense of
duty to to do the right thing and keep an eye on Heurich.

Advancing in the group of 6 other Tigers with Wittmann (7 total), was Dollinger, Blase (314), Iriohn, Kisters (312?), Rolf Von Westernhagen (334?) and Hans
Höflinger (who was in the other command Tiger possibly 008, or 009 - though 009 should have been Dollinger's so not sure of his mount on this attack.). Tiger
314 - Blase's, is mentioned as the only other KO'd Tiger apart from 007 that can be ID'd from the pics.

On p.425 Agte states:

"Hans Höflinger now describes the subsequent course of the attack from his experience: 'Then we drove off, Michel (sic) right of the road and I left, four others with Michel
and the brother of Heinz Von Westernhagen with me. Approximately 800 meters to Michel's right there was a small wood which struck us as suspicious and which was to
prove fateful to us. Unfortunately, we couldn't keep the wood under observation on account of our mission. We drove about one to one-and-a half kilometres, and then I
received another radio message from Michel which only confirmed my suspicions about the wood. We began taking heavy fire from anti-tank guns and once again Michel
called, but didn't complete the message. When I looked out to the left I saw that Michel's tank wasn't moving. I called him by radio but received no answer. Then my tank
received a frightful blow and I had to order my crew to get out as it had already begun to burn fiercely. My crew and I dashed toward the rear and got through. I stopped to
look around and to my dismay discovered that five of our tanks had been knocked out. The turret of Michel's tank was displaced to the right and tilted down somewhat. None
of his crew had got out. I climbed into Von Westernhagen's tank and, together with Heurich, whose Tiger was undamaged, tried to get to Michel's tank. We could
not get through. Dr. Rabe also tried it, but in vain...I can state the exact time of the incident; it was 1255 hours, near the Falaise-Caen road in the vicinity of Cintheaux.

Agte then follows up on p.425 with the British account of the incident:

"...At 1240 hours Captain Boardman gave Sergeant Gordon's tank the order to fire. The Tigers were seven-hundred meters distant. The Sherman Firefly's gunner was Trooper Joe Ekins, who hit the rearmost Tiger of the three Tigers in his sight with two shots. The Tigers had failed to spot the
well-camouflaged Shermans, and it was only after the first shots had been fired and a Tiger knocked out that Wittmann transmitted the message referred to by
Hauptscharfuhrer Höflinger: 'Move! Attention! Attention! Anti-tank guns to the right! - Back up!...'

On p.425 "Höflinger described how, after it was hit, the turret of Wittmann's Tiger was displaced to the right and tilted forward. That was its condition immediately after the
tank was knocked out. Furthermore it is absolutely certain that the turret was blown off shortly afterward by the force of the exploding ammunition - possibly accelerated by
burning fuel in the fighting compartment - and thrown several meters away from the tank. This is confirmed by the only existing photo of 007, taken by a French civilian
soon after the engagement. The Tiger therefore began to burn immediately after it was hit, which by then caused the ammunition in the turret to explode. Only
the tremendous force produced by the exploding armour-piercing and high-explosive shells could have torn the turret, which weighed tonnes, from the hull and then tossed it
meters through air. The crew must have been killed or incapacitated when the tank was hit. The subsequent explosion then extinguished any doubts as to the fate of the five
men inside 007."

Hans Dollinger the battalion signals officer, and Sturmmann Alfred Bahlo his Radio Op, also recount their experiences as the lead vehicle in the attack along a similar
vein to Höflinger...and say on p.429 as they make their way back from their burning Tiger with the fatally wounded Obschf. Schott "...On the way we passed the
knocked out panzer of Hauptsturmführer Wittmann; the turret was blown off."

Dr. Rabe also witnessed the hit and described it in a letter to Wittmann's wife to tell her the real story: "When the attack got rolling, I drove forward several hundred meters
and covered the last stretch on foot. There was quite a lot of heavy anti-tank and artillery fire. I wanted to get to Michel's (sic) tank. When I got to within about 250 to 300
meters I saw flames suddenly shoot from the tank and the turret fly off and fall to the ground. The tank then burned out completely. I still tried to reach it, but I couldn't cross
the open field as the Tommy fired at solitary me with their anti-tank guns. It is unlikely Michel got out before the hit, as I would have seen him. None of the remaining crew
members came back either."

Agte sums up with the following:

After evaluating all available documents on the German and English sides and interviewing the handful of survivors of this action..., one can only assume that the tank that
was hit at 1247 hours, was 007. Hauptsturmführer Dr.Rabe's account and the British war diary both mention that this was the only Tiger that blew up after
being hit. The eight minute time discrepancy compared to that given in Höflinger's account is of little significance as the source of the error appears to be completely genuine
and time discrepancies can never be ruled out. As well, Höflinger's account was written several weeks after the events in question; it is also thoroughly possible that the error
in time might lie in he English war diary."

Hope this is of some help to finally put this to one to sleep and has been of some interest, but anyone even remotely interested in Wittmann and/or LAH in general should dig
deep and get a copy of Agte's huge album as it really is the bible on all things 1.Pz.Div.

Chantal v/d Pruimenboom

hope this is of interest

 

Two votes in here!!!

 

Redcoat,

That is funny you mentioned that report about Wittmans' tank being "taken out" by a Firefly.

Recently a good friend of mine had the opportunity to take a trip to France, and he visited the mueseum that has the remains of Wittmanns Tiger I (number 007). He examined the tank very closely, and could find no evidence of a penatration hole on the hull! (much less 2!) The only holes on the hull where protruding outward, which means that this was from a round exploding inside the tank! This is what "popped" the turret off, and destroyed the tank. No holes were found on the turret either.

I first heard this story a few years ago from 2 other people that visited the tank. Since my friend was going there this summer I specifically asked him to look the entire tank over, and try to get photos.

Here are my thoughts on the subject. It was a fact that this was not Wittmanns' own tank, and was not with his usual crew this day. This tank was barrowed, and the gunner, driver, and loader had never served with Wittmann. The loader in particular was a rookie. I feel that in the turmoil of combat this new loader made a terrible mistake! He either cooked off a round inside the breech, or he dropped a round inside the tank, and it went off! This set off the rounds inside the tank, and it blew the crap out of it!

I know this sounds less glamourous than the Typhoon story, or the Firefly story, but judging from the evidence I have seen and heard, this could very well be what finally killed the greatest tank commander in history! The irony is just sickening!


Remeber how Rommel died? The German public was told that he died in combat from his wounds. I feel the same thing happened to Wittmann. The German propaganda wasn't going to say that he was killed by his own loader making a error!

Matt

[ 05. November 2002, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: mp38 ]

 

In all my reading on the air combats of Normandy I have not found any conclusive evidence that Tiffies were even in this area on the date of Wittmann's death. It was a Firefly and internal explosions popped the turret off as the panzer moved forward.

E

 

I was not aware that Wittmanns Tiger was recovered and preserved
After all, it was only years later (1983) that researchers put together the history of Wittmans final battle. The Allies did not know where Wittmann was killed, so how did they know which was the right tank
Do you know the name of the museum?

[ 06. November 2002, 05:25 AM: Message edited by: redcoat ]

 

I would also love to know which museum this is in; thought I had visited them all in Normandy, and have never seen any bits of Tiger 007!

Redcoat - thanks for that account. Personally I had always thought it was Northants Yeo who had done the deed - when you look at the ground there it seems more logical - but even their own account can't decide whether it was a Firefly or a Achillies (British verson of the M10); both of which had a 17-pounder. I think this account is pretty much conclusive - so thanks again for that!

 

I found a site on US tanks in WW2 which includes stats etc. Hope this was not somewhere earlier:

http://www.onwar.com/tanks/usa/

 

Well, I have just bought two books on the subject: 'The medium tank: Sherman' and 'British Shermans'. All I can say is that I have learned quite a lot about this tank and now I can say that it was a very good one. It did its tasks and depending to the situation it could be superior to a German tank! My favourite would be the "Firefly" also and the Sherman Mark V, with the five Chrysler car-engines!!! I like that! The Americans and their efficient, easy and cheap devices of their car-industry!