The myths of WWII (Eastern Europe)

A) Any exemple of Hitler ordering in 1941Bock and Guderian (Paulus is irrelevant his role in 1941 was negligible)into situations that cost the Germans resources,men and time they did not have ?
B) the weather did not stall the German advance :it was the Russian resistance .The weather affected both sides .It was not different for the Russians,unless you think that the Germans did not know what winter was Btw :there were no strategical withdrawings by the Russians .
About the 'Siberian " divisions:they were NO big factor in stalling the German offensive :17 were transferred to the front :6 before october,11 after october,and this,while the SU committed some 8 million (yes :8 million) men into the battle between june and december 1941.These Siberian divisions were some 5% of the Russian manpower .
C) you are wrong again .

 

Here again,you are wrong :you only are denying the German casualties (who are quoted from the German archives),because these are destroying your asumptions of the Germans being superior to the Russians).
And,about the dead :again you are wrong,that no one knows how many died on the eastern front,is IRRELEVANT,because the number of KIA always was a minority of the losses (for 1941 on German side:175000 on a total of 830000),the number of dead never was the half .Here again you are proving your ignorance .

 

The whole thing is a collection of mistakes :There was NO German attempt to capture Moscow during the winter,unless you can prove that the Germans attempted to capture Moscow in december,january,february,march .
Saying that in operation Typhoon the Germans were capable thrusting for Moscow,if Hitler had allocated the resources for it ,is NONSENS. Hitler DID allocate the resources for it,unless you can prove that there were somewhere a lot of resources lying idle.

 

A) Hitler made finding and destroying the russian army the primary objective. the german army did not need to find the russian army to destroy it. take over moscow, take out stalin and other high ranking officials and the russian army instantly becomes dis- organized, soldiers divide amongst themselves or desert. Russia was very divided and most soldiers that fought for russia had been part of stalins purge and were being forced to fight or face death, one of the reasons that many russians soldiers fought as hard as they did. That is a crucial mistake as Guderian later wrote that the soviets are a binch of divided people's held together by the force of the government and breaking the government would cause most of the soviets to divide. Hitler's stand fast order almost cost Guderians force early on and Guderian refused to follow that order withdrawing which saved his army from en circlement and he was relieved after and later hitlers stand fast order would cost him teh whole 6th army under paulus. Hitler's order for Guderian to turn south and attempt to send his resources south instead of re inforcing AGC and going for moscow were a crucial mistake. Hitler had more but that should be enough. of course your going to say this is un true and impossible and show casualty rates but okay.

 

B) of course the russian weather affected both sides. that is an unanimous statement. However the Germans were not prepared while the Russians were. I can tell from teh way you have takled that you have no military experience and obviously dont know anyhting about the effect that terrain and weather play in determining logistics, tactics, and basic combat. The T-34 was operable in the conditions. German armor was not operable and you posted those low operational numbers for me. German equipment (supply trucks, APC's, Artillery, AT guns, and so forth moved extremely slow and consumed more gas from being bogged down, needed more repairs as cooling lines, suspensions, and rubber seals failed more often. Germans were further from their home twhile the russians were fighting in it. Rusians had readily available supplies, they had equipment designed to move in the weather conditions. Yes the Germans know of winter however they were not aware of the severity of Winter especially the Rasputitsa. Winter set on early that year and it was the coldest in a long time. The German army was not prepared for this. The German army knew that equipment would move rather slow but they thought that the russians would have the same or worse problems because they were lacking technologically compared to the germans. This turned out to be untrue because russian equipment though primitive was reliable. and as far as no strategic withdrawels by the russians? Really the whole russians army was withdrawing continuously until the Stavka Western front was made which started at moscow so therefore the russians were withdrawing strategically. The only 2 offesnives ordered by Georgy Zhukov were the Suwalki offensive which was a big failure and the yelna offensive which managed to temporarily stall teh german offensive in sept. After that the Stavka reserve and western armies were combined into the Stavka western front in moscow. Notice that Sept. is fall and the weather began turning for the worse around that time. is it only coincidence that the Russians army did not manage to stop teh germans once before the onset of the weather which did come early that year despite what you think.

 

C) I am right again.

 

D) I have denied nothign. I stated that all casualty numbers especially the russians and Germans are rough estimates and that is fact. There was no way to count for the dead on that scale especially during the 40's in the depths of Russia. Once again this points to the fact that you have no military experience and obviously know nothing about combat. There is no way to keep track of millions of soldiers and all the civilians in that vast amount of land in that kind of weather. There is no way to identify seperate body parts. And frozen and thawed/muddy bodies would have been impossible to even identify. You would not be able to tell whether they were russian, german, civilian, or soldier. And dont even try to say that they had records of every soldier and kept track because even though they had records there were too many people to actually keep track of manually. Nobody knows how many people died in either of the world wars that is fact. Those are all estimates and I dont see how the casualty rate works against the Germans anyways. You said there was a ratio of 5:1 and your friend said 2:1 either way that favors the Germans. At 5:1 ratio as you say if you do the math then it would take 5 million russian soldiers to offset 1 million Germans. At 2:1 it would take 2 million russians to offset 1 million Germans. Both of those numbers favor Germans.

 

E) i did not say that the Germans were capable of thrusting for moscow in operation typhoon. They were capable of reaching moscow way before typhoon took place. Hitler and teh weather slowed them down. By the time Hitler approved an avdvance to moscow (operation Typhoon) it was already too late. The German army had bogged down in the weather as the winter came early and the Zhukov had the Stavka western front combined. Operation Typhoon indeed was an operation to take moscow whther you accept that or not. And despite what you think the German army lost more men especially experienced men to the climate than to combat. Once again you show you have no military experience. your more of a booky and stats are usually an innaccurate representation of reality especialy when you try to use stats that are estimates and not even exact.

 

Best German casualty figures

Only 1945 is a problem. Every other year has very detailed totals




Germany

 

A lot of claims,and,as to be expected, no proofs
1) proof that my stats are not exact ?
2)proof that before Typhoon,the Germans were able to reach Moscow ,
3)and of course,you have NO NOTION what casualty ratio means :a ratio of 1/5 means that the Germans lost 1 man to five for the SU.It does not mean that it would take 5 million Russians to ofset 1 million Germans .In may-june 1940 the Germans lost 150000 men,the allies 3 million men ;your assumption that because of a casualty ratio of 20/1,it would only need 150000 Germans to defeat 3 million allies,is nonsens .Btw,the 1/5 ratio did not favor the Germans,it was killing them.To win,the loss ratio had to be higher,much higher .
About body counting:I know better than you what the German losse were:in 1941:0.83 million,1942:1.1 million;1943:1.6 million;1944:2 million;there was no need to identify bodies :a casualty was dead,wounded or missing .When the Germans were advancing,their numbers of missing was low (in 1941:35000),when they were retreating,it was high (in 1944ne million)
Last point :your stubbordnes,your unwillingness to accept/understand facts,all this prove that your aim is to look for excuses for the German defeat ,because,from your POV,it was impossible that the German Ubermenschen were defeated by the Russian Untermenschen .It must be the weather,or Hitler,or bad luck,...
I will no longer wast my time with a goose-stepping individual .

 

What a bunch of hog wash. Russia has never been so united as she was when Germany invaded! People in Russia put aside their differences and came together as one and fought for the "mother land". The only division occured in eastern republics such as Ukraine and even then the West Ukrainian population was the minority in comparison with the rest of the country. Volunteers crowded the recruiting stations just as the Americans had when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. To claim anything else is a show of ignorance and the lack appreciation of what was occuring in Russia. Russians fought for Russia not Stalin.

Now for Moscow. The Soviet high command actually expected Moscow to fall. All high ranking party members and officers were evacuated to an alternate capital, Kuybeshov (including Lening's body). Only a skeleton force remained in Moscow. Stalin had a private armored train by his side in case an evacuation was needed. The Luftwaffe was of no concern as theyre attempts to bomb Moscow proved worse than when they bombed London. Hundreds of building such as the Kremlin, Moscow Hotel and the Bolshoi theatre were booby trapped and partisan units created.

A perfect example of Guderians blame can be seen in his disagreement of being moved south to secure Ukraine. Ukraine had to be secured and the 4 Soviet armies could not have escaped. This could not have been acccomplished with out Guderian. The plananing of Barbarossa involved all of the OKH not just Hitler. Destroying Soviet armies on Russias Western frontier was agreed upon by virtually all including Kleist, Kettle, Rundstedt, Leeb, Halder and Jodl (other names slip my mind).

Also, if you want to be taken seriously in this forum then you will stop using Guderian and his memoirs as a historical reference. After the Soviet archives opened up in the 90's, virtually all works written by German officers such as Guderian and Manstein were immediately written off by the academic community as accounts of disgruntled German officers trying to clear their name by placing all the blame on Hitler, weather or logistics.....

It is for this reason why there is not a single world renouned historian of the Eastern front which shares your view.

Here is a good starting point and an excellent read by one of the leading historians on the war in the east, David Glantz.....
http://www.strom.clemson.edu/publications/sg-war41-45.pdf

 

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? The Russians in front on Moscow DID NOT possess winter gear. It is for this reason that many froze to death just as the Germans had. The reason German Panzers needed to be run all night was so that their fuel would not freeze. Had the technologically supperior Germans used diesel engines and not gas ones some of these problems would have been alleviated (Russians too left their tanks on all night by the way).

The Russians did NOT have regular supplies. Constant shortages existed BECAUSE Russia was not prepared for war in 1941!!!!! Munitions, clothing, food, weapons were all in short supply. Even the T-34's existed in minimal numbers (only 300(?) when Germany invaded). When the Siberian toops reinforced Moscow they quickly noted that their artillery shells were of different calibre than their guns and did not fit!!! Believe it or not Jager, it was the Germans who benefitted from virtually all advantages which any army wishes to have when entering combat, including leadership and surprise.

Soviet counter offenes began almost immediately (even if they were futile) and all over the front. As for Zhukovs so called offensives.... they were ordered by Stalin not Zhukov. Believe it or not in the beginning of the war, Stalin too meddled in military affairs causing much suffering because of it.


PS,

Germany's worst defeats of the war in the east occurred in the Summer NOT Winter (Kursk and Bagration to name a few).

 

"Beginning from July 1942, the WED data was incorporated in the loss reporting system of the Wehrmachtverlustwesen (WVW) office of the OKW. A few WVW/WED statistics from the end of 1944 survived the war." Note this was incorporated after they found that reporting from front personnel was often mis leading. If you are a medical officer in war you usually take counts at a certain time. what happens to the accummulating dead before that time is uncertain. again when you are on a battlefront especially one of that size you dont have time to be dealing with the dead you are more concentrated on dealing with the living. Those reports ere not deemed efficient enough and a new system was implemented in 1942 to help and few of any of those records exist today so says that page. So all your saying is the German had a few records that are reliable but not all of them.

 

Ljad read any almanac for world war II casualties. you will see an asterisk that states the numbers are estimates. Furthermore a ratio of 5:1 means taht one german killed 5 russians before being killed himself. Total losses asssuming these are accurate as that is what you base your whole theory off of. th eGermans lost a little more than 4 million while the soviets lost more than 10 million. that is a 2:1 ratio pretty close to a 3:1 ratio for the whole eastern front. meaning that a 1 million german army was capable of taking on a russian army of close to 3 million of course thats doing it mathematically. as for counting casualties. that does not matter once again it is war. The german idd not simply look at a list and say well we did head count this morning and he wasnt here so mark him down as dead. Throughout the day bodies are recovred and at a certain time a person usually a doctor has to fill out a report. He has to id the bodies. Then heads not accounted for are put on a list os KIA?MIA where the military has to figure out where that person is. Whether the person died, is lost, or deserted is usually never certain. thus casualties are estimated based off of records and count but they are never accurate especially on that scale. Each soldier usually carries id of some sort but in battle this can be lost. Also russian and German soldiers often used each others gear which made it more difficult to see and then you mix in the some 17 million civilians into the body count. furthermore you have to id a bodiy if your are going to count it as a casualty lol. what you see a dead body and assume it is a german soldier? You see missing leg and assume its a german casualty? Never. Furthermore you have to understand that the way germans counted their losses were usually from operational numbers. Soldiers who were injured but chose to return to battle were often counted twice. a good example of that would be looking at tiger tank losses. notice the number of tigers lost exceeds teh number produced. That is because Tigers were often counted twice as they would b e knocked out repaired and returned to the field. This was often the case of many german loss reports especially on the eastern front.

 

Now for Slonisk. Indeed many russians united to fight the germans. Also note that a quarter of a million soviets also turned against the soviet union and fought for the germans despite nazi rascism towards them. Russia was united as long as the government had power. Stalins order to every kommissar in the soviet union. "In that time, the osobist (NKVD military counter-intelligence officer) became a key Red Army figure with the power to condemn to death and to spare the life of any soldier and (most any) officer of the unit to which he was attached.Likewise, the Soviet treatment of Red Army personnel captured by the Wehrmacht was especially harsh. A 1941 Stalin directive ordered the suicide of every Red Army officer and soldier rather than surrender; Soviet law regarded all captured Red Army soldiers as traitors.[45" A kommissar was in each individual platoon of red army soldiers and hastily assured that russian soldiers fought to their death or were killed. Stalin killed many people en route to becoming dictator of USSR and he had many enemies. Had Stalin been captured the German would have had the ability to negotiate a russian surrender for Stalins life. Had Stalin been killed the soviet union would have most likely went back into civil war as it did in the first world war. Furthermore if you really think the russians were not ready to fight a war by fall of 1941 then you are blind. Russians factories were immediatly moved inland upon german invasion. The russian army had just fought a war in finland and against japan and most uinits were already equipped to deal with snowy condition from fighting in those wars. Furthermore the Luftwafe never bombed moscow so as to where that information comes i have no idea. Officers routinely flew over moscow and that was it.

 

Lastly I know many historians who talk about Guderian constantly as being one of the greatest commanders of the war. and many of the US military officers who study Guderian, me being one of them. Guderian, Rommel, Montgomery, Chuikov, and Patton are the 5 most studied commanders from world war II and their influences still continue to drive modern warfare today. Guderian's principles are the basis of all mechanised warfare used today despite the increase in tech and capabilities. Guderian is the basis of most battle plans of the modern world. The US battle plan for the Gulf war was largely based off of Guderians principles. Guderian is one of the wisest commanders to ever see a battlefield. And even Hitler knew that and that is why Guderian was re instated as chief inspector of German Panzer forces. If HItler had thought that Guderian was amd would he really have put Guderian in charge of inspecting his forces? I think not. And most German high command was not in agreement with Hitler on Barbarossa. In fact German High Command was very split in several different directions no side accounting for a majority. Hitlers plan won because he was dictator and even after the plan was chosen most German commanders continued to not follow it. Bock and Guderian being two of them.

 

Oh and lastly we are talking in 1941 sir. Not 1943 so Kursk and Bagration are void of this debate. One of my first comments already had said that Kursk was of little importance because Germany had already lost the eastern front by this time and was delaying the inevitable. But if you really want to call the German War Machine "weak" then maybe you should look into the operations of the s.H.Pz.Abt. 503 from 1944- end of the war in which their 45 Tiger II tanks that the russians regarded as "shoddy in quality" nearly destroyed the 62nd and 7th guard army, accounting for approx. 500 tanks destroyed and more than 1000 infantry weapons and assured that the Czech area remained in German hands untill the end of the war.

 

Lastly, to that older comment that continues to bother me. I have in no way said the Germans are superior to the russians. I am an officer dedicated to the study and art of war. I have mentioned the advantages and disadvantages that each side possessed and is the case with all nations of the war. You are the one that called the German army "weak". I never called the russian army weak or any of the sort. I simply attribuite the cause of teh German failed initail offensive to 3 factors Hitler, Logistical problems caused by th eterrain and weather, and the reliability of russian equipment over the reliability of German equipment. And rest assured I am more right by saying had it not been for those factors the russian army would have been driven back into the depths of siberia. I am sorry if you can not accept the fact that the Germans were by no means "weak." A more correct statement would have been the Germans were too strong for even themselves. The Russian army by no means weak was indeed primitive compared to the Germans but as primitive as they were, they were more reliable and adapted. It was not overwlming numbers that hurt the Germans in 1941 as the German war machine was well aware of the numbers. The numbers did not start making a difference untill 1943 when it actually became overwelming.

 

Notwithstanding what certain people are thinking,(if one would dare to use this word),the German statistics about casualties are very detailed and reliable .
They can be consulted on:
WWII statscom :military casualties Heeresartz reports 10 day(!) casualties by Army/AG
ex:01-10/08 1941:11th Army :KIA 512,WIA 2415 MIA 534
exn 31/12/1944 :casualties for the Eastern front :
KIA :906901
WIA:3519879
MIA:1117265
n 31/12/1943:
KIA:655164
WIA:2438198
MIA:420609
With some reckoning,one has the following result for 1944:
KIA:251137
WIA:1081681
MIA:696656
Total :2030074
Of course,some people still will claim that these figures are not reliable and not detailed,but,that's their business .

 

And,about the divided Russia :this is an old myth created and used to put the blame of the German defeat on Hitler :you know the story :millions of Soviet soldiers were waiting to desert to the German side,and millins of Russian citizens were waiting to collaborate with the Germans ,but,as usual,the stupid Austrian corporal,was preventing this .
The point is
1)the mass surrendering and deserting of Soviet soldiers was very rare(in 1941,some Baltic units)
2)there are no proofs that the Soviet citizens in the occupied territories were willing to cooperate with the Germans,nor were they willing to cooperate with the partisans:the only thing they wanted was to remain alive;this was so in Russia,this also was so in occupied France .
While the truth is that there was (wide spread) discontent in the SU,that will not say that peoplewere willing to cooperate with the invader.
It was the same in Germany :at the last free elections(1932),more Germans were voting socialist and communist ,than nazi.But there are no proofs that those no nazi' s were not bitterly fighting,or were massively surrendering .