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SU 152 animal killer

Discussion in 'Armor and Armored Fighting Vehicles' started by Kai-Petri, Dec 18, 2002.

  1. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    The SU-152 was a dual purpose gun, mounting a 152mm L/32 howitzer on a KV-I chassis.
    Its tank killing role was outstanding, and it would later be known as Zvierboy (Animal Killer) as it could knock out Tigers, Panthers, but also the giant Elefants. Prototypes of the KW-14 (later SU-152) on modified KW-1s chassis were completed in a record 25 days, and on February 7th of 1943 barely a month after the Russians captured their first PzKpfw. VI Tiger I (!!!!), and the first twelwe of the SU-152s were rushed to Kursk in July 1943, and an additional nine would arrive as reinforcements. SU-152's (as Jagdtigers) carried an explosive charge to destroy the cannon and the engine in case of capture danger.
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    Talking about quick reaction to the Tiger problem.25 days and into production! Must be a world record! Even with the chassis ready by KV-1.Wonder if Hitler had sent the Tigers to combat at Kursk and not earlier like this so that the Russians had no time to prepare for it??

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    At the end of 1943, a new assault gun, the ISU-152 , based on IS-2 heavy tank was produced. It was armed with a very powerful 152mm howitzer. The shell of this gun could penetrate any part of the Tiger's armor and even cut the turret from the hull. This assault gun was nicknamed "Animal Hunter". The weight of the AP shell was 48kg, while HE shell was 41kg.

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    [​IMG]

    SU 152 the animal killer- a month after the Tiger was captured this beast went into production!

    http://members.rogers.com/georgeparada/articles/newgen.htm

    http://www.battlefield.ru/su152.html
     
  2. CrazyD

    CrazyD Ace

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    Ya... the SU-152 was a very "russian" weapon! Although it was quickly desigend and fielded, the vehicle was nonetheless very reliable from what I have read. And the gun... not really an anti-armor weapon, it was taken very closely from the russian 152mm howitzer. Just a case where the damn shell was SO BIG that it could seriously damage anything!

    One thing, though, Kai- I have found in a cuple sources that SU-152s were in fact NOT ready for the Kursk battle. I'll check form home later today, but I seem to remember both the SU-152 and the T-34/85 both arriving just a few months too late for the Kursk offensive.
    I'll see if I can find those sources...
     
  3. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Here is another point where old references and the net do not agree. I've always heard that this big beast was created for the useage of heavy mobil artillery. A tank killer it was not destined to be as the muzzle velocity was not high, but any pillbox or defensive postion would be cratered in a matter of minutes by these boys......

    E
     
  4. CrazyD

    CrazyD Ace

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    Erich, I get the idea that it was not really either. I think the russians were somewhat desperate for heavier firepower, especially with the introduction of the Tiger. I get the idea that there was no specific designation as to artillery or anti-tank, but more of "let's put as big a gun as we can on something with armor that moves"!
    At the time, the SU-122 was already in service, no? And these two were essentially a very similar vehicle. I have read in a few places that despite the also-impresive size of the 122mm gun, that the russians found the SU-122 to have disappointing anti-tank performance- probably due to the fact that it was self-propelled artillery, and not designed for anti-tank. Thus, an immediate reaction was to simply make the gun bigger. I think the idea was just that the SU-152 could blow the hell out of anything, pillbox, tank, or whatever.
    We do see, in I believe early 44, the SU-85- one of the SU vehicles specifically designed as a tank-killer. Instead of modified artillery guns, the SU-85 mounted a modified 85mm AA gun (similar, tho not as good, as the german 88). And from what I have read, the SU-85 actually had the best performance of all when used as an anti-tank vehicle.

    The 152 is a monster though... I'd imagine it would damage ANYTHING that it hit pretty badly!
     
  5. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    Guess I would have to look at the overall performance of this massive beast. Poor fuel and engine stats, limited crew availability, limited travers, actuall no lateral travers, so it would have to be used as a dug in AT wepaon, but with it's introduction late 43 ? it would be a mobile attack unit, but again I feel it's primary use as mobil bombardment material. As you said the SU 85 would be more suitable as a quicker Motor vehicle and could move from side to side to try and avoid Tiger rounds coming it's way. With the Soveit T-34 type gun it was quite suitable as a German tank destroyer.

    E
     
  6. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Thanx Crazy and Erich,

    For your comments. It´s good to see that there´s more to it than what one sees at the first glance.
    I´ll try to find about these facts as well, as the Russian tanks have been a bit of a "black hole" in my history books previously.But I immediately got interested as I found out that catching the Tiger made the Russians go for bigger weapons. What a **** from Hitler to lose the advantage like that, quite amateurish actually.

    I agree, that the Russians quite simply tried to crush the Germans with bigger weapons and they did that as well. I guess there´s no other explanation to these huge beasts. The T-34/85 did not enter the scene until autumn 1943 and did not take part in Kursk. The precise date I do not have at the moment. I´ll try to find data on SU-152 and the mentioned Russian tanks now.

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    The 152 mm ML-20 cannon had 655 m/s muzzle velocity and was capable to penetrate 110 mm vertical armor from distance of 2000 metres. The weight of the AP shell for this cannon was 48.78 kg, and 43.6 kg for the fragmentation shell. Cannon had a rate of fire only 2 shots per minute because of multi-part loading shot.

    The weapon system chosen was a shortened version of the M-1937 152mm cannon. The gun would be designated the M-1937/43 or ML-20S.

    The SU-152 was used in both the assault and anti-armor role. In the assault the vehicle would be used to reduce bunkers and other strong points so that the infantry could advance. This was especially useful in urban combat situations.

    In the anti-armor role it was hoped that the sheer size and power of the projectile would destroy enemy armor. While this was true, the fact that the weapon fired a two-piece artillery-style cartridge made it much less effective than a true tank destroyer. It simply lacked the ability to fire rapidly when discovered after a
    tank ambush.
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    SU-85 was a pure tank-destroyer. It's 85mm Model 1943 D-5S L/53 gun was based on an anti-aircraft gun, and was mounted in a ball mantlet with limited traverse. The series production of SU-85's began at UZTM in August 1943. By August -43, the first SU-85's was delivered to tank-destroyer battalions. It made it's combat debut in the Red Army's offensive on the Dniepr River in the Ukraine. The limited traverse showed decisive in close combat which had to be avoided. The SU-85 lacked machine-guns, which made it vulnerable to infantry attacks. When the T34/85 appeard using the same gun, the SU-85 quickly became obsolete. When production ceased in favor of the SU-100 in late -44, some 2.050 SU-85 tanks had been built.

    http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/ww2-equipment-selfprop-su85.htm

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    penetration tables:

    http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/ussr/guns.html

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    General Rotmistrov said at proposal of the situation of the Soviet armored formations in 1942: "The difficulty is that while there is not much difference between the light [T-60] and medium [T-34] tanks on the roads, when moving cross-country the light tanks are quickly left behind. The heavy tank [KV] is already behind and often crushed local bridges which cut off units following after. Under battlefield conditions, that too often meant that the T34 alone arrived.; the light tanks had difficulty fighting the German tanks and the KVs were still delayed in the rear. It was also difficult to command these companies as they sometimes were equipped with different types of radios or none at all". Rotmistrov concluded that it would be more prudent concentrate industrial resources upon a single 'universal tank', instead of wasting them between different light, medium and heavy types.

    Gen. Katukov said: "The T-34 fulfillsall our hopes and has proven itself in combat. But the KV heavy tank ... the soldiers don't like it ... It is very heavy and clumsy and not very agile. It surmounts obstacles with great difficulty. It often damages bridges and becomes involved in other accidents. More to the point, it is equipped with the same 76 mm gun as the T-34. This raises a question, to what extent is it superior to the T-34? If the KV had a more potent gun or one of greater calibre, then it might be possible to excuse its shortcomings".

    Red Army was still missing a heavy assault gun which could support infantry attacks with heavy fire. Encouraged by SU-122's good proofs and, moreover, by succesful German Sturmgeschutz, K.A. Kotin started designed a new vehicle matching the requests: it was then decided to use the KV-1s chassis equipped with a fixed 75mmm armor thickness super-structure and a 152mm L32 ML-20 howitzer for this role: after only 25 days first SU-152 was out of factory.

    Production started on March 1st 1943 and gradually replaced the production of the KV-1s. By September of the same year, when manufacture ended, 704 had been built.

    During the Kursk battle this assault gun was highly appreciated by the Soviet tankers: its gun had a remarkable anti-tank capability, being able, with its 45Kg AP rounds fired at 650 m/s to pierce a 120mm thick plate at 1,000 metres and so to take out the new heavy German Panthers, Tigers and Ferdinands. The HE shell were also decisive being able to procure not field reparable damage to tanks and/or immobilize them.

    The regiment urgently rushed in the Orel salient was credited of the destruction of 12 Tigers and seven Elefants in three weeks of fighting. After these results it was granted of the "Animal killer" nickname. The SU-152 heavy assault gun concept was so much succesfull that the Soviets adapted it on the next generation heavy tank, the IS- II.

    http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4635/tanks/kv85/kv85.htm

    http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/ussr/selfpropelledguns.html

    ;)
     
  7. CrazyD

    CrazyD Ace

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    OK, I REALLY need ot go run some errands, but...

    Interesting... especially considering that the russians also continued to use the SU-152's biggest weakness! One of the major weaknesses of the IS-II tank was the gun- it used a projectile/powder charge system, which made it incredibly slow to load... seems that was actually carried over from the SU-152, despite the obvious drawbacks. Even more odd in that the IS-II did NOT use the same gun as the SU-152, so it was not something that was just quickly carried over. :confused:

    Don't at all mean to push this thread towards the IS-II tanks... it's just amusing that one of the major, and one would think obvious, weaknesses of the SU-152 was retained in later designs...
     
  8. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Well,

    I am not an expert on those tank ammunition things so I am not getting into it but one of the things that made life easier for the Russians was the German poor supply of manganese and they had to use nickel ( since summer of 1944 ) instead which made the tanks´armor brittle, especially at the seam welds.So a good hit at least made cracks in the front armour and personally I would get out of the tank after that... :eek:

    http://www.battlefield.ru/is2_1.html
     
  9. Heartland

    Heartland Member

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    Yeah, but I think it is hard to blame the little corporal for this one. The Russians seized the Tiger on the Leningrad Front, where it had been deployed in a marshy area supporting a local attack. That's more of a tactical mistake, using a heavy tank in marshy area. In hindsight it may not have been too clever to dole out such weapons piecemeal though!

    Of course, the Russians had already seen the Tiger in action earlier in 1943, and I believe during the Stalingrad relief effort.
     
  10. Heartland

    Heartland Member

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    Right, this isn't something you would want to wake up and see as a German in '44... [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [ 19. December 2002, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Heartland ]
     
  11. CrazyD

    CrazyD Ace

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    Couple minor things-
    Heartland, I think (but I need to check sources- not sure!)that you may be confusing the first action by Tiger tanks and the first one the russians captured. The first Tiger the russians captured WAS on the Leningrad front, but was not captured due to the marshy deployment. The FIRST time Tigers were deployed in action was early 43 (Feb, I think?) on the Leningrad front. Three of the machines were deployed in an area that was mainly swamp. Suprise, suprise- none of the tanks were able to move or maneuver properly. All were disbaled by enemy fire/breakdowns. BUT- I'm pretty sure that in this case, the germans were able to recover all the vehicles. I believe (again, need to check sources- please correct me if I'm wrong!) that the russians captured a Tiger tank later, in the spring of 43.
    I'm also pretty sure that there were no Tiger tanks available for the Stalingrad relief effort. Not sure about that one though??

    Kai, the ammunition thing was just poor design, essentially. Two of the russian guns- the gun in the SU-152 and the gun in the IS-II- both used a cumbersome system for ammunition. Both guns ahd a seperate charge and projectile. The loader would have to first load the projectile, THEN load a powder charge behind it, and finalll push the two into place then shut the breech. This made the IS-II (and apparently the SU-152!) VERY slow to fire. True, both guns used very large projectiles that would probably only need one hit. But nonetheless, this long load time was generally reagrded as a major drawback.

    Good point also on the armor. One of the many resources the germans had in short supply by that point!
     
  12. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    SU-152 the "animal killer"


    [​IMG]
     
  13. PFC Wilks

    PFC Wilks Member

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    thats a mean lookin gun bro. i dont see how we can keep getting better and better. we have to reach a peak right? the m1 abrums is almost perfect. the m-16, well room for improvement. but u see what i mean? so war advancements will sese all togather. then WWII buffs like us will die off...
     
  14. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    The sooner, the better.
     
  15. Polak z Polski

    Polak z Polski Member

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    While we're on the topic of the most wicked tanks in the world, does anyone remember that advanced battle tank that America was developing in the cold war that didn't go into production?
    I believe it was in the 60's, but I could be wrong.

    The SU-152 was one awesome machine!
    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    I found some model 152mm shells on the internet:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  16. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    You are thinking of the MBT 70. An advanced version of 152 mm Gun / Missile system (Shilleligh {sp}), gas turbine engine, crew mounted totally in the turret with a stabilized driving "fly by wire" system, one of the first hydropneumatic suspension systems (the tank could lower itself when stationary to make less of a target), etc.
    A very costly and eventually unworkable tank. Shows what happens when you have more money than sense....
     
  17. Polak z Polski

    Polak z Polski Member

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    That's the one. Thanks!
     
  18. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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  19. Fortune

    Fortune Member

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    wow, that is some beast isnt it?
     
  20. skunk works

    skunk works Ace

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    Neat vehicle, looks just like my 1/35th scale.
    I'm pretty sure that the ISU-122 was later than Kursk, the SU-122(H), on an 85 chassis was there.
    Kursk saw the addition of the SU-152 and the SU-85 in small numbers (compaired to the rest of their tanks).
    Not the T-34/85 as some others believe.
    Both the ISU-122, IS-2 were later developements of the (up-graded)KV chassis.
    I've heard "Tiger Tamer" & "Beast Killer".
    This gun was big enough to destroy virtually anything it hit.
    In Belton Coopers book he spoke of an incident where a U.S. SP 155 rounded a corner and came face to face with a "King Tiger". The U.S. SP gun was horizontal and loaded with HE. It fired.
    The shell luckily hit right under the Barrel where the turret meets the hull.
    Anywhere else it would have bounced off.
    Hitting where it did, the kenetic energy of the large shell (plus explosion) removed the turret completely, sending it to the rear of the chassis.
    Elevation & traverse were both "hand" wheeled in the 122/152.
    In its debut, it had the L/20 (H)(KV-2), later when the SU/ISU-152 (on IS chassis), had L/29 with greater range/muzzle velocity, which needed multi-baffle muzzle break to avoid excessive recoil.
    88lb shell (HE), 112.4 (AP)
    781-1,670 ft/sec
    13,560 yds (max range)
    A smart move by the Russians!
     

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