Polish, Czech & German rifles.

Hi, I recently have been looking at the Rifles used by the Polish, Czechoslovakian and German rifles in the period 1938/39 and they all seem pretty similar, did any off them have an advantage over the other ?, apart from which nation trained its soldiers better in musketry.

7.92mm 98K rifle
Design: Mauser
Amount: 4722925
Weight: 3.94 kg
Calibre: 7.92mm
Shell Weight: 27 g
Muzzle Velocity: 755 m/s
Magazine: 5 Rounds
Range: 2000m (Max), 800m (Effective)
Rate of Fire: 15 r.p.m.

ZB Vz.24 Rifle
Design: Brno
Amount: 762.000
Weight: 4.2 kg
Calibre: 7.92mm
Shell Weight: 27 g
Muzzle Velocity: 760 m/s
Magazine: 5 Rounds
Range: 2000m (Max), 800m (Effective)
Rate of Fire: 15 r.p.m.

Wz.98 Rifle
Design: Random
Amount: 44.500
Weight: 436 kg
Calibre: 7.92mm
Shell Weight: 27 g
Muzzle Velocity: 880 m/s
Magazine: 5 Rounds
Rate of Fire: 12 r.p.m.
Range: 2.700m (Max), 800m (Effective)
Rate of Fire: 15 r.p.m.

Regards Yan.

 

I would say that all bolt-action rifles in regular military service in WWII were sufficiently equatable that combat performance is determined entirely by the individual skill of the rifleman, the quantity and quality of ammunition available, and the tactical disposition of the forces involved in the engagement one wishes to evaluate. The only exceptions would be in the case of considerable mismatch in cartridge performance, such as the Japanese Arisaka Type 38 rifle (6.5 x 50mm) which was well outside the standard deviation for 20th century military rifle ammunition, or in the case of extreme qualitative difference of manufacture, such as the so-called "Substitute 99" version of the Japanese Arisaka Type 99 (7.7 x 58mm). These exceptions still present only marginal statistical significance. The Type 38 was an outstanding weapon apart from the ammunition chosen for it; it was an immensely strong design, rugged and well made. It could easily have been upgraded to an 8mm class cartridge. The Substitute 99 was a POS by any standard, but it could kill you deader than a hammer provided the even worse "last ditch" iron cartridge actually detonated.

My personal favorite bolt-action is the SMLE Mk. III (without the stupid magazine cutoff), just because it shoots 10 times rather than 5. And even though the 7.7 x 56mmR is one of the weaker rounds in its class, that extra magazine capacity presents a considerable tactical advantage in my book.

 

Yes the German Army of WW1 thought they were under Machine Gun fire, when it was really rapid fire from the Lee-Enfield, refering to the 6.5mm round, I read or seen somewhere that the smaller 6.5mm round caused more damage due to its small size as it tumbled through flesh causing relly bad wounds.

 

Yes, the Type 38's bullet does tumble more in flesh than a Mauser bullet with identical kinetics, however, that can be a weakness as well. This is because the 6.5 x 50mm Arisaka is a "pre-Spitzer" design which means that it's shape doesn't reflect a truly scientific approach to aerodynamics.



Note how the Japanese bullet (I'm referring to the projectile only, not the whole cartridge) is proportionately longer than the modern bullets on the right. This shape means that the center of pressure is somewhat forward of the center of mass, consequently the bullet has a tendency to tumble rather than fly straight. All bullets will do this as they decelerate to a critical velocity, but the less modern shape will do so sooner. It is also more likely to be deflected by foliage than the spitzer shape.

Let me digress here to illustrate this point more clearly. The Thompson SMG fires the .45 caliber ACP cartridge. Though radically different in shape from the Arisaka the Colt bullet it shares its tendency to tumble when it encounters minor resistance like a leaf. Consequently the Thompson was less desirable in jungle fighting than an SMG firing the more aerodynamically staple (yet less powerful) 9mm Parabellum. Marines discovered this weakness of the Thompson while on Guadalcanal. There are anecdotal stories of a Tommy-gun totting Marine spraying a suspected Japanese soldier's location only a dozen or so yards from the Marine's position and completely missing the enemy. This tumbling behavior decreases effective range. (The MP-40 is generally considered a better war-fighting weapon than the Thompson, since it fires the 9mm it out-ranges the American "trench broom.") An even better example can be illustrated by the Kennedy assassination. Lee Havey Oswald fired three shots at JFK, hitting him twice. The missed shot missed the whole car and hit the curb. A scientifically reconstructed computer simulation shows that Oswald's first shot likely encountered some intervening foliage and was deflected more than 20 feet left of his aim-point. Oswald's weapon was a Mannlicher-Carcano M91/38 rifle, which fires a 6.5 x 52mm round with very similar terminal ballistics to the Arisaka round. In other words it's an acceptable but rather short-ranged rifle in the open desert, but considerably less than optimum on an jungle island in the Solomons. Likewise the Type 38. But it's not a vice of the rifle itself, it's the ammunition. Re-chambered for a modern cartridge design like the Mauser 7.92 x 57mm IS the Type 38 would be fully the equal of any bolt-action infantry rifle in world.

 

There is a similarity between the Arisaka round and the Carcano. Both do have very long bullets only that the Carcano has a RN bullet. But if you would try them to shoot out of well made rifles, you will found them as a very accurate rounds like the other known 6.5x55mm swedish too. In my opinion the 8x57IS and also the .30-06 have been overpowered.

 

There is round-nose Arisaka ammunition available as well. In fact the only recently-made ammo I've seen for the Type 38 is the RN variety. Likewise there were pointed as well as round-nose cartridges available for the Mannlicher-Carcano.

 

Actually all three were based on the same rifle, the Gewehr 98 and used ammo of the same caliber, 8*57mm. The German and the Czech versions were carbines with shorter barrels, the Polish version was a long barreled rifle.

 

Thanks Markus, that will explane that fact that the Polish rifle had a longer range (2.700m) then the German and Czech Carbines (2000m).
Regards Yan.

 

Speaking of range, in both wars rifles were rarely fired beyond 300 meters.

 

True. The fact that the long range capabilities of the various infantry rifles used by the warring powers in WWI led the German army to retire the Gewehr 98 (the standard issue rifle of the Kaiserreichsheer during the 1914-1918 war) in favor of the shorter and lighter Karabiner 98k (k for kurz i.e. "short") in 1935.

 

I think that the practical rate of fire of all these rifles / carbines was closer to 10 r.p.m. rather than 15 r.p.m.

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BTW - number of bolt-action rifles & carbines of the Polish Army on 01.07.1938:

Kb = rifles
Kbk = carbines (short rifles)

7,92 mm Mauser (main type - other types were only stockpiled and/or used by "2nd category" units such as National Defence, artillery, etc.):

Kb wz. 98a - 59.500*
Kb wz. 98 - 241.000*
Kbk wz.98 - 263.099
Kbk wz.29 - 300.849**

* Until August 1939 number of Kb wz. 98 & 98a increased to ca. 311.000.
** Until August 1939 number of Kbk wz. 29 increased to ca. 320.000.

Converted (from original 7,62 mm) to 7,92 mm (but some of wz. 91 were not converted) Mosin:

Kbk wz.91/98/25 - 76.445

8 mm Lebel:

Kb wz. 86/93- 145.222

8 mm Berthier:

Kb wz. 16 - 12.500*
Kb wz. 07/15 - 23.974
Kbk wz. 16 - 18.436
Kbk wz. 92 - 8.421

*Further 29.000 were in equipment of Police.

8 mm Mannlicher:*

Kbk wz. 90 - 1.551
Kb wz. 88 - 19.311
Kbk wz. 88 - 1.679

* Ca. 21.000 (all types) in August 1939. Not sure if they actually were in the Polish Army or just in Police, Border Guard, Gendarmerie, etc.

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It seems from these statistics that the number of rifles & carbines in the Polish army was somehow insufficient.

According to a report from 1936 the Polish army after full mobilization would need 1.044.000 Polish (7,92 mm) and 170.000 French (8 mm) rifles & carbines.

But as can be seen above the total number of Polish rifles did not reach this level even until 1939.

Sources for the above numbers:

http://forum.ioh.pl/viewtopic.php?t=17627
http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=121437&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
http://www.weu1918-1939.pl/piechota/karabiny/departament_piechoty_karabiny.html
http://odkrywca.pl/pokaz_watek.php?id=280206

Polish infantry with Mauser rifles:



More photos: Karabiny w WP - Oglnopolski miesicznik ODKRYWCA

 

I know that most Infantry engagements were down to a few hundred metres, I was trying to gage the maximum range, maby on a firing range. Some sites give two ranges, Maximum and effective, I was if I could trying to get both, but I didnt want to ask for both.
Thanks, and Regards Yan.

 

Hope you´ll have a Range that is long enough for it! A K98 round can go out to over 3000m if the outgoing angle is correct, but it would interesting if you can hit anything like a man sized target at the max. range on the backsight of th k98.