stalingrad and Wikipedia

How accurate is wikipedia in regards the the casualties suffered at Stalingrad ? Its a question Ive been meaning to ask for a while. What is the official German/Russian Dead for the actual battle..

 

The numbers of losses for those battle will differ from source to source but not much. The German losses for Stalingrad are 245000 regarding to Dr. Kurt Zentner´s
book " Illustrierte Geschichte des Deutschen Reiches, Band2".

 

I would also trust Wiki on the matter. Regarding famous battles, many sources are available and it is then easier to check for encyclopedias. When we are dealing for lesser knows subjects, figures tend to get more subjective and less sources will be avalaible , so it's logically more difficult to be accurate. The compilation they offer on Stalingrad is quite impressive and shows the works has been verified and figures are in the range of other serious sources . Just my 2 cts

 

It depends on when you are starting the battle of Stalingrad:july ? august ? or if you are narrowing /limiting the discussion to the encirclment period (17 november-2 february).
While 245000 on German side is a bit to high for the encirclement period,it is to low for the july-february period .

 

Could you elaborate please.

*LRusso was just about to reply to your link, but its not atm.*

 

So going by wikipedia the fight for the city cost 310,000 dead + 90,000 POW for the German side whilst the Russians lost 480,000 dead, correct ?

LRusso although i cant see you link at present some of the numbers were quite varied from what I remember.

Although Stalingrad is referred to as a city is it really anywhere near as big as say Adelaide or any major city with their sprawling suburbs..Is stalingrad a "suburb" (loosely) ??? Does anyone know the km2 of the city at the time..

 

750,000 dead for the Soviets.

1.1 Million dead

German losses: 147,000 dead + 91,000 POWs

Soviet losses: 478,741 k + 651,000 wd. = 1,129,741 casualties

There are some differences between the estimations guys. Whos correct the Soviet Historians with 1.1 Million dead whilst the others quote 1 million "casualties".
Surely their sources are the same, would not the official Soviet records have the correct number.

Do the members on here agree with this guys conclusion ?

 

NO.
From WWII Stats:conclusions by the Abwicklungsstab) group B (Stalingrad):
Strength on 15 october (including replacements till 3 february 1943):339.009
NOT inside the pocket (=some 50 %)
156269,of which :dead :7384,missing :3177
Transported from the pocket :
15911 sick/wounded
434 non sick/wounded
Remaining in the pocket :
158630,of which 11O36 dead (till 3 february) and the remainder (=147594) missing
Not classified:7765 =men of whom nothing was known :were they in the pocket or not ? were they killed or not ?
1)only the half of the original 339000 were encircled
2) it is very hazardous to count the losses before the encirclment :when did the battle for Stalingrad start ? What were the units who did participate on the battle of Stalingrad ? What were the geographical limitations of the batle of Stalingrad ?What about the Hiwis? How much were involved ? How much were killed ?
While the losses of the 6th army before the encirclment are known (see WWII Stats),divisions moved from 6 Army to other Armies,left the Stalingrad area,etc....
3) Should one include in the "Stalingrad dead" the number of German POW that died afterwards ? Those who died in march 1943 ? In june 1943? In 1944? In 1945 ? Etc ...And,how to calculate these numbers ? 9000 "men from Stalingrad" returned to Germany,but,IMHO,this is not proving that the remainder were dead .
4)If the Abwicklungsstab Stalingrad was using the figures of 15 october and not those of 19 november (the encirclment),maybe it was that there were no reliable figures for 19 november,resulting in the impossibility to have reliable loss figures .
5) When did the Battle of Stalingrad end ?on 3 february ?If so,what about the loss figures (between 19 november and 3 february) of the units ouside the pocket? What about the losses of the units who did not belong to the 6th Army,but participated to the relief operation,directed by Manstein ?(Winterstorm starting on 12 december)
6)About the POW:if one is counting as a Stalingrad dead Schmidt ,becoming POW on 31 january and dying in Russian custody on 17 june 1943,what about Schmitt,WIA on 1 september in the Battle of Stalingrad,and dying of wounds in Germany on 16 june 1943? Also a Stalingrad dead ?
IMHO there should be an agreement on all these points (and a lot of other)before starting the hazardous discussion about the Stalingrad losses /dead .

 

Im not sure im reading this right but your saying of

only

were actually dead ?

Thats alot to go "missing"

Interesting, I thought the whole 6th army was lost at Stalingrad. Albeit so half was lost.

​

Well Im guessing no Hiwis survived, executed no doubt if surrended.

LJAd My main question was how many Germans and Russians died "fighting" (Not POWS/Hiwis) for Stalingrad say23 August to 2 February before and after encirclement.
For example 19,000 Americans "died" during the battle of the bulge, its a definative answer and its one Im looking for.

 

From Soviet losses by Krivosheyev.

Stalingrad defensive operation. 17/7/42 - 18/11/42

Irrecoverable losses 323,856
Wounded 319,986

North Caucasus defensive operation 25/7/42-31/12/42

Irrecoverable losses 192,791
Wounded 181,120

Stalingrad offensive operation 19/11/42-22/43

Irrecoverable losses 154,885
Wounded 330,892

Caucasus offensive operation 1/1/43-4/2/43

Irrecoverable losses 69,627
Wounded 84,912

 

Well,no one will be able to calculate the number of Germans that were KIA after 19 november (the encirclment):that figure does not exist .The difference with Bastogne is that Bastogne was delivered,6th Army not .
And for the pré-encirclment period,the problem is the territorial delimitation of the battle of Stalingrad :where is the battle starting ? Woronesh ? And where is he stopping? 50 km south of Stalingrad ? 100 km south of Stalingrad ?

 

There also is the point that the Soviet terminology is confusing :irrecoverable losses (also called permanent losses)are ALL dead :KIA,dead from wounds,dead from sickness,etc(I also have read that men discharged from the army because of mutilations also are included in the irrecoverable losses) .

 

Thats correct it even includes executions in the combat zone, suicides and POW's.

 

Voronenzh is nearly 600 kilometres away from Stalingrad, so that would be start of the campaign rather than the battle. You seem pretty knowledgeable on Stalingrad so where would you consider the beginnining ?

 

When you say outside the circle, that is out of the city right ?

 

Stalingrad has a certain aura about it that revolves around sacrfice, heavy street fighting, the 6th army facing its doom in a shattered city. Perhaps its myth, like Kursk ?

I seem to remember reading (some time ago) about the Russians losing 70,000 at Mamayaev Kurgan..

Apparently the Germans had 8 divisions committed to the taking of Stalingrad, no doubt these divisions wouldn't be up to full strength so perhaps somewhere 30-50,000 men were involved in the street fighting. Surely many perhaps "overlooked" sieges or street fights had more men committed in the city offense/defense roles. The third battle of Kharkov barely lasted a month yet the SS suffered 11,500 casualties whilst the Soviets sufferred 45,000 dead and another 40,000 wounded. Surely this "city fight" is comparably heavier than Stalingrad...

Its seems as though the 3 week battle of Berlin with 160,000 combined German+Soviet dead takes the cake it seems..

 

This winter I read "Enemy at The Gates". The book is a raw account of this battle and it is depressing.
It references casualties, but I doubt they are total when you have bitter enenies fighting total war in an area this size.
You would have to take into account how accurate Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, records are. Let's face it during this battle they were on their own.
Neither Germany or the Allies were in a mood to help them after the war and It may be possible that many thousands of casualties were unknown.

 

Stalingrad is also a story of desperate defense, clever deception, a brilliant maneuver and a stunning triumph. A true turning point of the war in Europe.

BTW, there are plenty of maps of Stalingrad online including German aerial photography.

 

About the German Stalingrad losses again :
around 1 december 1943(shortly after the encirclment),AGB was splitted in AGB and AG Don.
Would one add the losses of AGB (=2Army, and 29 and 24 Army Corps) to the Stalingrad losses,or would one limit the Stalingrad losses to the losses of AGDon (=6Army,4PzA and Army Detachment Hollidt ?)
If the losses the Germans suffered to conquer Stalingrad and the losses of the encircled units are considered as Stalingrad losses,why not the losses of the Germans during the attempt to restore the connextion with Stalingrad.
And ,what about the second Soviet offensive (16 december 1942)? Is this also a part of the Stalingrad fighting ?
There also is the fact that there is no agreement on the date that the battle of Stalingrad started ,for the Soviets,it was 17 july,but, I have seen other dates on German side .