Assistance required re who shot down Halifax NP 975 on 22/12/44

Hello all. I was just wondering if anyone knew of any concrete evidence regarding who shot down my father's Halifax, NP 975, on 22/12/44, around 1900 hours, on its return flight from Bingen? I am currently very confused indeed, as I have read that it could be Peter Spoden, Richard Launer, or K H Weigel. What I have gathered is: Middlebrook and Everitt’s,‘Bomber Command War Diaries’, and WR Chorley’s, ‘RAF Bomber Command Losses ofWWII – 1944’, record that three RAF four-engine bombers, of Bomber Command,were lost over hostile territory, on the Bingen raid of the night of22/12/1944. These aircraft were: Lancaster PA977 of Squadron 405; Halifax NA501of Squadron 578; and Halifax NP975 of Squadron 466 (my father’s aircraft). Onthat evening, at around 1900 hours, my father’s Halifax was shot down. At18.59, Luftwaffe Pilot, Peter Spoden (GruppenkommandeurI./NJG6), shot down a four-engine bomber with the position of ‘20-40 km NW of radio-beacon Graf’, near Kyllburg, 20 kms north of the town ofTrier. Six minutes later, at 19.05, Captain Kurt-Heinz Weigel, of the sameNight Fighter ‘Wing’ (if that is the correct term, I am unsure), as Spoden, (NJG-6), also shot down a Halifax. ‘The WarDiary of Luftwaffe Night Fighter Geschwader 6’, by Werner Kock, recordsthe position as ‘SW Bingen’. Launer also shot down a four engine bomber at 19.05, west of Koblenz. The eminent Dutch Historian, Dr. Theo Boiten, in hiscomprehensive book ‘Nachtjagd War Diaries, vol. 2’, suggests that it was Weigel who shot down NP975. Another Luftwaffe expert I have been in contact with thinks it is Launer. After reading the German Squadron’s War Diary excerpts, emails from Peter Spoden re that night, the records from thesurviving crew members of NP975, a statement from the crew of NA501, our No.466 Squadron Operational Record Book (ORB), plotting the locations involved, factoringin approximate airspeed, wind speed and wind direction, and reading varioussecondary interpretive accounts, I certainly lean towards Spoden being our man,but acknowledge that this may be totally wrong. At this point in time,therefore, categorically, which of the three Luftwaffe Pilots shot down NP975 on22/12/1944, remains highly debatable. Any concrete assistance would be greatly appreciated indeed. Thank you.

 

I'm afraid this is going to be almost impossible to find out. Dr T Boiten actually uses the word "probably" for each three kills, icncluding Weigels claim .The fact that Launer is mentionned as having shot down a Lancaster, leaves two candidates in my opinion. it's likely to be Spoden or Weigel . (but even then the LW pilots often mistook the Viermots.
What would make a difference is if you find out what altitude the Nightfighters flew, considering the two Halifaxes were shot down at 3600m and 4700m for the other (NP975) .

 

Thank you, so, so much for that input. As I could not find any concrete evidence of any type to indicate anything categorically, I merely plotted what I could ascertain of each of the three Luftwaffe night fighters, and three bombers onto a Google map, marking the target, the place they were intercepted, where the crews bailed out (for those that did), and where they crashed. I then tried to marry this with as many relevant factors as I could muster, just to see who might be the more likely pilot. I then inflicted my Google map upon everyone who was interested, or who might know more about these things. To me, from this exercise, Spoden looks the most likely of the three, although I completely acknowledge that this is no more than a calculated guess. In your opinion is there anything else I can really do? How could I find out heights flown as you suggest? Peter Spoden has been so helpful so far, it might be in his Log Book I guess, but he is not terribly well, so I don't like to ask him. Is there any other way? Thank you for your help. Knowing that I can't really know, and nor can anyone else, is very useful.

 

What helped me a lot in the past with several crashes were relics. For instance one farmer recalled finding a crew member's watch that had stopped at such and hour, this gives a serious lead to the exact crash time. Testimonies from survivors are to be taken with caution , the hours they mention are often approximate (you can imagine that a pilot isn't going to fill in his log sheet and look at his watch instantly.
I believe your most serious lead would be altitude. If you find out that any of the three shot down bombers attempted evading, then their altitude is likely lower than one shot down in one burst by surprise. you 'd expect the two second victims to have witnessed the ordeal of the first bomber , but even that is subjective as two were actually apparently shot down at the very same minute. My guess is that the first victim flew lower. this could explain the 10 minutes difference, but again that is a guess, not a fact.
Have you the Luftwaffe experten forum? They may have info.

 

Skipper has covered it pretty well...it can be a very difficult and frustrating task to link a fallen aircraft to the nightfighter which shot it down. One avenue to explore is the crash site locations, if known. I believe that several aviation archaeology groups are active in the Ardennes area and may be able to help with clues. Some years ago I was involved in just such a search in which the wreckage of a Lancaster, which since WWII had been listed as 'crashed into the sea' was in fact five miles inland.....such a search can take a long time.

I'm sorry not to be able to offer anything more positive. As an aside, I notice from Chorley that the pilot of NP975 HD-H ulimately lost his life whereas the remainder of the crew survived as POW ; indicating the sacrifice that so many Bomber Command pilots made.

 

Thank you both so much for your advice. I will follow those ideas and leads up. I will be going to the crash site in April, after Anzac Day at my Dad's Squadron. The pilot's niece and I are going together, which should be an amazing experience. We will be visiting the pilot, Ron Feilberg as well (in Hotton War Cemetery). You are right, he was a very brave man, who sacrificed his life in an attempt to ensure the remainder of the crew bailed out successfully. He was in the final process of evacuating when NP975 crashed. I will have a hunt around for aviation archaeology groups active in that area. I don't suppose you know of any? Sorry if I am pushing my luck. I have been in contact with Jorg Helbig from the other site. He has also been most helpful. He does not agree with Boiten re NP975 which is interesting. He believes that the most likely pilot is actually Launer. An additional factor, or two, is that my father said that they were the second last over the target that night, they were slowed up as they had to feather an engine, and they were taken totally by surprise by the good ol' ‘Schraege Musik’. I'm sure they may be relevant factors, but I don't watch enough Agatha Christie to know how they may be relevant! Again, thank you greatly for your assistance.

 

Does anyone have a list or website of aviation archaeology groups are active in other countries?

 

You'd have more chance by typing towns associated to aircrafts, rather than finding a global list. I have names for France but not Germany.

 

Tiana

first good luck on finding whom in the LW shot down the Lanc, Peter is a good proposal as he told me his Ju 8G-6's were fitted with the SM installation. Direction not just altitude is essential in plotting ut the air op and it should be done for all losses on the date required to get a full jist of that nights claims t losses in reality. not all LW night fighters were equipped with SM just as a sisde notation for you and others on the forum board. would be nice to have the LW Flugbuch and after action report of the evening but that is almost nigh impossibloe. one thing is that when Peter and nhis staffel were captured by US forces at wars end all his personal belongings and awards were removed or shall we say 'given up' to US servicemen.
and have mentioned this in the past when the LW crew shot a 4-engine down many times the area of the engagement was noted and not necessarily where the bomber/fighter crashed. but of course the other way around was also reported as well..........more confusion added

 

Thank you so much for that. It is all good stuff for that great big pot of confusion! I am currently attempting to plot interception points, crash sites, distance travelled after being intercepted, the approximate speed of the aircraft ... the list goes on. The outcome is that I am even more confused than before. Ha, ha!!! I don't seem to be very good at complex puzzles, but it does help to have sites like this to add to the equation. Thank you greatly.