Israeli Settlements

The very least that is needed forgetting any bull...is Israel must stop new settlements...And America and Europe need to look at its dual nationality citizenship programs and who goes where and does what. with dual citizenship.

 

Never was a United Ireland. At best four kingdoms including Ulster.

Ulster is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but I doubt there is a single British politician who would prevent it joining the Republic if the majority wished it.

Being Anglo-Irish, I am sad that religion and landlordism destroyed the previous Union - if Parnell had not taken a married mistress, Home Rule, history and a lot of misery and death might have been prevented.

 

That's it in a nutshell though, isn't it?

We can make all the high sounding proclamations we wish, we might even mean them most of the time, when it doesn't conflict with our interests and self image, but reality is a heartless bitch that doesn't give a damn.

The reality is that Israel is a nation with a bunker mentality that views these settlements as a vital national security issue and as long as they retain the best (local) military in the region and hundred or so nuclear warheads, nobody is going to change their minds.

The reality is that the Palestinians did not have a state before the foundation of Israel as they were British subjects from 1919 and before that subjects of the Ottoman Empire. They will not co-exist in any form of dual state that does not have them as the ruling body within that state which means the destruction of any Jewish nation.

The reality is that the surrounding Arab-Muslim states to varying degrees have a vested interest is the current state of affairs and would accept only one solution. The elimination of Israel as a nation.

I don't like the current situation and wish there was a peaceful alternative, but the hard reality is that all the players see this a Zero Sum game, one side wins and survives, the other loses and withers away.

 

While it is true that the hardliners on both sides see it thusly, there are quite a few who are tiring of all the violence.

Many hardliners on both sides are encouraged by those nowhere near the reality, whom, at no personal risk, continue to advocate violence.

 

Neither did the Finns, nor quite a few other nationalities - the Jews included - until they got one. Not having a state before does not mean, that they should not have one.

The problem is, that the Jews got/took proportionally far too much land already in the beginning - not to even mention the current situation.

That's not true. At least the majority of them would accept a fair solution - which is not in sight.

 

So let's arbitrarily go back to 1947 for the whole world, as the UN insists Israel must do. Let's see the Russians back in eastern Europe.

 

So that's your best argument? Not even the Russians themselves are making this argument...

Face it KB, you are making emotional arguments, in favour of oppressing a people, in flagrant disregard of international law.

Your world view makes no room for anything else other than "Might makes right". Happily for you, you live in the mightiest country on earth. What happens when it is no longer the rightiest?

 

They got 4%. Is that too much? And let's not ignore that this is the Jewish homeland. They have the earliest claim, and a continuous claim as well since Jews have always lived there under a variety of foreign rulers.

Many Arabs live in Israel. They have full citizenship and vote their own representatives into the Knesset. They earned that right for themselves and their children simply by staying after 1947. Those who left abrogated their claim to Israeli citizenship and declared themselves enemies of the state. Why should Israel allow them back in?

By now, 95% of the "Palestinian" people have never lived in Israel. My ancestors lived in Ireland, but I have no claim to Irish citizenship since they left that country - they abrogated my rights when they left. On my mother's side there is Cherokee blood, but since her parents opted not to sign into the tribe in 1921, I have no right to any benefits (money, land, education, free health care) that members of that tribe are entitled to. I'm fine with all of that.

The UN, the US, the west in general, has poured trillions of dollars into the Palestinian peoples pockets (or their leaders pockets), over the years. Yet, if one goes to google Earth you'll see an amazing thing along the Israeli border. On the Israeli side you'll see crops and groves and irrigation works and homes and schools - it's green and inviting. On the Palestinian side, you'll see barren desert. They've done nothing with all of that aid. And if they get into Israel it too will descend into squalor and violence.

 

Yet, you are.

The Palestinians are already oppressed, by their own leaders. Why allow them into Israel to oppress and massacre other people?

 

The UN does not insist that the Russians should get back to occupy the Eastern Europe.

The Russians were foreigners there - as almost all of the modern Jews in Palestine/Israel are.

 

Now you are just being preposterous.

Have you spoken to many Palestinians about their leadership in the West Bank? I personally know many, and have met them.

Israel is... sort of green, because they have been draining the water which should be running into the Dead Sea, which has fallen to an alarming degree. They cannot continue this indefinitely, it is unsustainable. Nobody takes a desert and makes an oasis, without long term consequences. The water level of this huge lake has fallen tens of meters.

Additionally, I have seen the progress made in the West Bank by the aid, when ISRAEL allowed it to enter...

 

Not true, over 70% were born in Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

How about the "Palestinian" people? How many were born in Israel? This link says only 3.6% are over the age of 65, so about 96% of them have zero claim to Israel. Their parents and grandparents abrogated any claim when they left and declared themselves enemies of that nation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories#Age_structure

 

Those territories border the sea, Egypt and Jordan. Israel can not prevent aid from entering, though they have at times intercepted arms.

A little research will show you just how much international aid flows into the territories, and a look at google Earth will show you that it is wasted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians

 

4 % of what? Of all of the Arab world? Why should areas, where there were no Jews at all, count? Why don't you count the hole world? Then you would get even smaller percentage!

Israel took 78 % of the Palestine-Israel area, although the Jews were only 1/3 of the total population and owned less than 6 % of the land in 1945. At the same time the Arabs owned 48 %. Now Israel has occupied most of that remaining 22 % too.

A Jewish homeland?! NOBODY can (or rather should not) make claims based on hear-say from thousands of years back! The (Arab) Palestinians are the ones with the proven continuous history in the area - not the Jews. Besides the nowadays Palestinians are closer relatives to those ancient Jews than the Jews today - if one still thinks the very ancient history is somehow relevant. No religion gives any land ownership rights over other peoples properties.

According to a Jewish site less than 9 % of the population was Jewish in 1800. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html
Yahoo says that in 1890 the Jews there were still less than 5 % - or 20-25.000. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070616215906AArrpPU

In other words the Jews were a very small minority in Palestine until the mass immigration. Such a small minority can hardly claim much.

The Arabs in Israel are second class citizens, whose rights are limited. Somehow their rights just don't exist in the real world. Ask any international human rights organization. E.g. the USSR had excellent laws in many ways and the rights of her citizens were outstanding - on paper...

The refugees did not leave voluntarily, like Israel wants us to believe. They were either kicked out or escaped the Israeli violence. Why should they need to claim the Israel citizenship - who illegally occupied their country and lands? What/who gave Israel the right to robbery?

Your ancestors left Ireland voluntarily, the ancestors of the Palestinian people did not. Your mother's parents opted something, the Palestinians did not. A slight difference, would you think?

Much more money has poured from the USA into the pockets of the Israel occupation army. The money for the Palestinians is pocket change in comparison.

Israel steels the water from the Arabs and wastes it. That's why the Israeli side is green. Ask any international human rights organization.

 

Of those 70 % most (=almost all) are second or third generation immigrants. (If I steal your property, do my children own it legally...?)

The children of the refugees did/do not loose the ownership of the properties of their parents. The refugees did not leave voluntarily and thus did not loose any rights. The "enemy" is the nation which did the ethnic cleansing and robbed the lands of the rightful owners.

 

I agree we can't turned the clock back. And don't see how it would be possible to admit large numbers of Arabs of Palestinian descent to return to the land of their fathers or more likely grandfathers.

There was brief point when Rabin and Arafat shook hands that there might have been a negotiated peace. That fleeting moment disappeared when Rabin was assassinated my an Israeli extremist. His wife blamed Netanyahu for his incitement.

Since then Israeli policy has seemed to get more and more extreme. Why does Israel need more and more Settlements (I even find the word offensive) - as has been pointed out Israel is more than capable of defeating any number of opponents and possession of the nuclear bomb guarantees, in extremis, the existence of Israel.

The only conclusion that can be reached is that Israel, or at least the present administration, wants to occupy more of the traditional Arab lands of the former Palestine.

Even though American Presidents and Foreign Ministers have from time to time condemned settlements or excessive use of force in putting down Arab unrest, Israel does as she pleases. I just can't see any American public putting up with this sort of insolence from any other Ally.

 

How about the 20% of the Israeli population that is Arab? They stayed, by choice.

Let's look at another similar example. After WWII, Albanians held much of the property of Serbians who had owned it before the war. Yet, when Serbia wanted to push out the "ethnic Albanians" the UN interceded to prevent them. Now, I'm not defending the racial and ethnic hatred that went along with that, but the world (the UN) decided that the Serbs had lost that land and too bad. The Serbs can't have it back.

What's the difference between that and Israel? The Arabs lost the land and they should move into Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and shut up. They can't have it back.

 

Oh, come on! Israel civilians are under regular rocket and mortar attacks, not to mention bombings and other acts of terror, and the Israeli's are the extreme ones?

 

Isreal does as she pleases as long as the USA lets it happen and supports Israel unconditionally - always and in everything. The USA has the means to put an and to it - but not the will.

The Palestinians are paying the price every day - as is the rest of the world...

 

They stayed - for various reasons surely. Maybe they were the lucky (?) ones, not hunted by the bloodthirsty gunmen? Maybe they did not own any land? Nobody leaves their homes, if they don't have to. Those who escaped would have liked to stay too - but could not.

The Albanians were oppressed by the Serbs after the WW2. The Albanians were third class citizens without rights. On top of that the Serbs started the ethnic cleansing and killlings of the Albanian civilians. No surprise that the world did not tolerate that. The Serbs have themselves to blame.

The Serbs were the bullies - as are the Israelis. In modern world (the UN etc.) just robbing somebody else's land just isn't acceptable any more - not even for Israel.