Human catastrophe

they murdered the peaceful Olympians...they attacked a peaceful gathering of athletes for games of peace..they murder someone in a WHEELCHAIR....these are nice people who want to free POWs???....it doesn't matter how many were killed...they killed an elderly person in a wheelchair..this tells you that they should be annihilated in the least..
please think about it..a 69 year old man, celebrating his wedding anniversery...sitting in a wheelchair...and then the poor little Pals --POW---BLAST a round into his head...
the Olympians were murdered with their hands TIED ...murder cannot be accepted....they want to free their country and POWs, do it without murder

 

How about when the Israelis surrounded the refugee camps in Beirut and sent the Phalange Militia in to kill women, children and the elderly? The PTO/Lebanese Shiite fighters had already moved to Syria under the terms of cease fire agreement overseen by the multi-national forces. They had left their families in the refugee camps with the understanding that they would be protected. Upwards of 3,500 were slaughtered.

"Janet Lee Stevens, an American journalist, later wrote to her husband, Dr. Franklin Lamb, "I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles."

The citizens of Israel were so appalled, 400,000 marched in protest, 10% of the population. Their protests led to an investigatory commission was formed by the Israeli government, Minister of Defense Ariel Sharon was forced to resign, the Director of Military Intelligence was cashiered, and the IDF division commander censured and denied promotion for three years.

Besides Sharon, Yitzhak Shamir, was the only other member of the Israeli Cabinet, proven to have been aware. Then there's this conversation between Sharon and US Diplomat Morris Draper :

"So, we’ll kill them. They will not be left there. You are not going to save them. You are not going to save these groups of the international terrorism.. . If you don’t want the Lebanese to kill them, we will kill them."

Shamir had been a member of the Zionist terrorist group the Stern Gang.
Sharon early on had been involved in conventional military operations but formed a guerilla group, Unit 101. They were responsible for the Qibya massacre where most of a village was destroyed and 69 Arab civilians were killed, over half women and children.

There's enough blood on both sides hands that neither side is innocent.

 

Here's a newspaper article on a Palestinian murdered by 3 Jews in Israel:
http://www.latimes.com/world/middleast/la-fg-israel-conviction-20151130-story.html

 

This is not correct : The 2 camps were meeting-places of terrorists ,and the civilians living in the camps were co-responsible, besides the executions were not committed by the IDF but by the Lebanese Phalange as revenge for the murder of their leader .

 

There is no proof for the number of 3500 victims : following the IDF there were 700/800 victims, following the Libanese police :460 .

Besides, in 1985 Muslim militia attacked 2 Palestine camps killing 635 people and no one protested,this proofs that the "indignation" about Shabra and Shatilla was not more than crocodile tears .and Israel bashing ..

Shabra and Shatilla is the way how one is fighting in the ME .

 

Sharon did not order the Phalanges to kill innocent people....the Israelis did not directly murder anyone...

 

Really, what part of his quote; "So, we’ll kill them. They will not be left there. You are not going to save them. You are not going to save these groups of the international terrorism.. . If you don’t want the Lebanese to kill them, we will kill them." doesnt sound like their slaughter was his intent. The Israelis had the camps surrounded, didn't let anyone out, but did let the Phalanges, their proxy army in.

The Red Cross confirmed 2,000 bodies they dealt with and Israeli journalist Amnon Kapeliouk reported that the Phalanges had disposed of another 1,000-1,500 prior to that.

It was an excuse, the assasination had been carried out by a Lebanese Christian not Muslim terrorists. There were few if any fighters left in Beirut, virtually all had left for Syria before the MNF withdrew. Sharon sent the militia in, he let them know what he wanted, and he got it. There was much testimony by Israeli officers and US diplomats to that effect. The Israeli public knew it and marched in protest of it.

 

please provide link..that quote means nothing as is ....he could've been talking about the terrorists.....I've read many ..some say he was the ''butcher''...some just say he did not intervene.....you get many versions of the events and blame.....lot's of people blame the US for Rwanda genocide...and blame the US for the Israelis bombing Osirak, when in reality, they had nothing to do with it...
and to top it, I don't see Pals protesting when their own murder foreigners, I see them dance with joy...shows the difference between the 2 countries big time....the Israelis protested the killing of innocents..
Israelis did not do the killing...I've seen no oders by Sharon, etc to do so......

 

Amongst the victims there were Pakistani and Algerians : what were doing Pakistani and Algerians in a Palestinian "fugitive " camp in Lebanon ?

 

What were the Israelis doing in Lebanon?

 

There are no written orders concerning...Pieper & Malmedy, Hitler & the Holocaust, etc. That does not give them a "free pass".

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

 

Replying to Palestinian terrorist attacks

 

That might be the case. So far haven't seen any confirmation to that. Good luck with your "strikes"...

Are you saying, that if one continues the crime it eventually becomes legal? The Israelis were foreign, when they invaded and robbed the lands. That their children have been born on robbed land, does not make that robbed land theirs. The children/grand-children of the foreign invaders on robbed land are foreign invaders too. In the same way the children/grand-children of the refugees and rightful owners are also refugees and rightful owners themselves - by definition of the UN.

And the Israelis are still continuing to rob more and more land every day.

I don't actually. That they attacked the British does not change the fact, that they attacked the Palestinian civilians too - which was my point.

Yes, and I don't support it. However I can well understand it, since their peaceful homes had been attacked, their peaceful relatives had been murdered and so on. It is hypocritical to condemn some crimes, but ignore the other similar ones, which were the original reason.

Yes, killing one man in a wheelchair was not cool, but one should compere that to the THOUSANDS of killed Palestinian civilians - women, babies, elderly. Shouldn't their killers be "annihilated" too...?!

Actually in the beginning the first ones died while fighting the Palestinians - so no hands tied.

The rest died, when the German police started shooting the Palestinians - against the agreement.

HOW?!

 

it also does not prove guilt

 

1.have you been following this thread long enough to check my other thread on Jordan?? if the Israelis are the problem, how come Jordan even had a war with them, and expelled thousands of Pals from Jordan?
2. how many people here know that Black September was not formed initially because of the Israelis, but becasue of the problems in Jordan

the Pals are not wanted anywhere because some of their groups are too radical...even their own kind doesn't want them!
now, all this talk of Israel being the problem--please tell me about Jordan.....the Pals are the common trouble denomator here....

http://www.britannica.com/topic/Black-September-political-organization-Palestine

they were also murdering Jordanians...I'd like to ask this question again, ..to all<>all I've been hearing is how bad the Israelis are...please, what about the Jordanians? Pals=common denominator

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/september.html and Jordan bent over backwards for them!

 

It's because it's not a black and white world, there are factions in all nations, in all groups,some good, some bad, most people fall in the middle. They want the same things, to raise thier kids, have enough to eat, a place to call home. Also many groups morph over time,

 

History has proved that this is not true .

 

"Strike" was a baseball metaphor indicating a false statement on your part. So no luck involved at all on my part.

What constitutes a crime varies over time. To insist on using modern definitions to events that occurred half a century or more ago is simply not helpful and the further back you go the worse it gets. Saying the Israelis were foreign is simply not accurate. Some of the Jews may have been but some weren't and that is of little real import in any case. The claim that they were invaders is of marginal merit as well. By the international laws of the time the establishment of Israel was legal. The fact that Israel defended itself and occupied more defensible borders in the face of the obvious hostility and aggression on the part of their Arab is a very reasonable and justifiable action. You are also confounding a couple of things that really need to be looked at independently that is land ownership vs sovereignty. The formation of Israel did not change land ownership it simply defined which powers had sovereignty over the various parts of Palestine. Land ownership did change as a result of the conflict as well as the area over which Israel had sovereignty but to a large extent this was legal. It may not in some (indeed in most) eyes have been just but it was legal, understandable, and to some extent reasonable. You do realize that the Palestinians are the only case where children and grandchildren of refugees are considered refugees themselves don't you? In all the other cases of refugees in the latter half of the 40s the vast majority have found homes and become citizens of whatever country they now live in. The Palestinians haven't and that is at least in part because they have been denied the right and ability to do so and Israel isn't the only nation that has had a hand in that.

Premeditated killing of an invalid is different than collateral deaths as a result of military action. I will also note that in some cases Israeli citizens and even military have faced trial due to such killings. I have yet to hear of a Palestinian court trying someone who killed an Israeli.

In summary your one sided and emotion laden choice of words show that you have no real understanding of this rather complex issue nor any intent of trying to understand it. You simply wish to rail against Israel. I hope you enjoy your Kool-Aid.

 

yes, some of these things we discuss are much more complicated than we think, and have a lot of factors we know nothing about....however, it is a fact some cultures do not prosper as well as others...some are ''self destructive''....be it for any reason, their culture is one of war/murder/assassination/etc..sure some are good and want what you said....but, just like other cultures, the proportion of trouble-makers is too high for the good to offset

the question is/was, if Israel is the problem-bad guy with the Pals, how come the Pals also had big time problems with the Jordanians??...see the common trouble denominator?? the Pals...

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htterr/articles/20151209.aspx

here's a link from LWD that touches a little on my above statement

'''despite over half a century of animosity towards Israel by a larger, and because of oil income, quite wealthy Arab coalition, Israel not only still exists but thrives compared to its Arab opponents.'''

'''These princes have also been supporting the Arab Reform Movement, which is based on the idea that most of the Arab world's problems are internal, not the result of outside interference'' bold/italics mine

 

Those who still stick to their belief that the average Muslim is as the average Western,could maybe read the following article by Sheldon Figler in the Huffington Post of 3 march of this year with as title :

Why does Iran want nuclear weapons ? An alarming possibility .

The end of the article is striking :

"The Obama administration and the State Department may find it inconceivable that a nation in our contempoary world would create a vast uranium enrichment capability,much of it at hardened or underground locations,for the objective of bringing about an apocalyptic event that will set the stage for the return of the 12th Imam.However,ignoring the words of Ayatollal Ali khamenei (the author refers to a speech of khamenei on july 9 2011)and transposing our own Western concepts onto Iran's motivation for creating its nuclear project is a perilous course for America and the world to pursue."

Simplified : Khamenei will do anything (even sacrifice the lives of 40 million of Iranians) for the return of the 12th Imam or Mahdi .

The belief of the return of the Mahdi is nothing special: it existed already in the 19th century and caused the death of Gordon in Sudan .