No Hitler

This is rather related to the Hitler Stalin thread but no one responded to my post there so i figured i'd make this new one
If Hitler didn't exist what type of government would you see being there..how powerful?
Do you think the Soviets would have tried to take over europe even england?
How likely would it have been for Germany to be Communist from the begining with no Hitler?
Could the Soviets have succeded in taking and keeping Europe? When would have such an event happened? Would the US have interfered in any way and how would they have been involved?
Who would have ended up the victor in that type of war.
I know the responses to this would be quite hypothetical but people don't normally have a problem with that so
NOW if people don't respond to THIS amount of topics to feed off of i'll eat my shorts!

[ 11 September 2002, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Ron ]

 

I cant see the Weimar Republic succeeding; or democracy in general for that matter. Someone would have taken power. My bet is it would have been communist, Soviet style. Then the West would be in big trouble!

But lets say a fascist took over. Now likely it is someone who is not as able as Hitler; lets face it, the guy worked miracles prior to ww2. Whoever it is would probably blunder through any attempt at war; somewhat like Mussolini.

The third option is Germany falling apart. Anarchy rules, and someone steps in. France would be only too eager to. But Russia might see it as an opportunity to expand her influence. Theoretically, a European war could erupt over what to do with Germany. It came close to it after ww2.

 

What about a war between the soviets and the West?

 

"If Hitler didn't exist what type of government would you see being there..how powerful?"

My guess is a kind of military-conservative semi-democracy. At the November 1932-election, NSDAP alread lost 4.3 % (33%), Communists gained 2.6% (17%), Social Democrats had slight losses (20%), Convervatives gained (Zentrum 12%, DNVP 8%).

A part of the Communists' votes was surely a reaction to the polarization to the extreme left and right of these days; without NSDAP (whose voters would have instead voted for Social Democrats, Communists and Conservatives), the Communists wouldn't had been able to mobilize that many votes.

"Do you think the Soviets would have tried to take over europe even england?"

No. Maybe their immediate neighbor countries, but not Germany, France, Italy or even England.

"How likely would it have been for Germany to be Communist from the begining with no Hitler?"

The Communists tried to start a revolution in Germany after WW I and failed. From that day on, the Communist movement played a big role in Germany's political business, but they weren't a lethal danger any more (the NSDAP of course propagated such a scenario). Both Commies and Nazis took advantage of the impoverishment of the middle-class during the 1920-ies Big Depression, which was about to be over in the beginning of 1930. After all, the Communist influence in Germany was less compared to France.

"Could the Soviets have succeded in taking and keeping Europe?"

Taking? Maybe. Keeping? No.

"When would have such an event happened?"

Attack on the USSR, destabilization, imperialistic hunger, a lethal crisis inside the USSR, lack of resources, good opportunities, an allmighty USSR influence in Europe allowing ther to act as she wants - basically it's fair to see any reason any nation had earlier and later to invade other countries, legitmate or criminal.

"Would the US have interfered in any way and how would they have been involved?"

If her interests would have been violated and if the risks involved in an intervention were considered to be less than the benefit, yes.

"Who would have ended up the victor in that type of war."

Democracy.

Cheers,

[ 12 September 2002, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Well, economically, it wasn't really Hitler but the end of the worldwide Big Depression who worked "miracles". Hitler multiplied this general boom by a huge deficit spending into armament. This "investment" (a strong Wehrmacht) was planned to be used to "earn the money" in the 1940-ies to pay back the debts.

Cheers,

 

I do not believe the Weimar Republic would have lasted. At the time, the social democrats were in power but they were being blamed for the signing of the Versailles Treaty. They are on their way out. Being that the Germans were used to an autocratic governement, the communists were the strongest next to the Nazis. And since Hitler was the pivotal element that brought the Nazis to power, without him, there would be no Nazi governement. But the element that is normally forgotten is the Wehrmacht. If the Wehrmacht did not approve of any one group, that group was removed. So in the end, some kind of puppet government with the Wehrmacht holding the strings. As we have seen, they approved of the Nazis because of Hitler's plan to break the Versailles Treaty and to rearm Germany. The Wehrmacht like what they heard but they thought wrong in thinking that they could control Hitler.

I do not believe the Soviets would have invaded Europe. The only moves if they had the inclination to expand would have been Estonia, Latvia and perhaps Poland. That would have been the extent of their expansion.

 

I can see a Wehrmacht take over...and they did underestimate Hitler; many made that mistake. But I don't see the USSR stopping at Poland. A second world war was almost inevitable after the Treaty of Versailles. And with the USSR already controlling Eastern Europe, and seething from Western suport of the royalists, the outcome of Versailles, and mistrust of the West in General, An East versus West conflict could easily have happened.

This scenario is actually dealt with in Westwoods Red Alert and Red Alert 2. Both games were good, but the first one deaks with with an E v. W war in the late 40's, assuming Hitler never came to power.

 

In 1933, the 100,000 man Reichswehr (Wehrmacht was founded in 1935) was not a significant "player". Their political home was the Zentrum or DNVP Party.

Cheers,

 

I think that if it began to recover economically and with a President who was not slipping into senility, Weimar could have stumbled on. The problem was not the system, but the unwillingness of Politicians to take responsibility and the absence of true support for the Republic. You could always bring back the Kaiser and create a constitutional monarchy.

Jumbo

 

I beg to differ. The Wehrmacht's size does not mean that it had no impact in internal affairs. It was large enough to put down any type of revolution. Question, if it was not a significant player, then why did Hitler go out of his way to gain their favor prior to and after his election as chancellor?

 

The Reichswehr was a significant player: see Kapp Putsch or Hitlers seduction of them in the 30's. However they diod not have this massive surfeit of political influence, but had limits as to what they would accept. Mostly this boiled down to keeping the KPD out of government: how many armies today would accept a Communist electoral victory?

Jumbo

 

Certainly, not a Weimar republic. That bad imitation of democracy was not popular at all and it would have fallen sooner or later because it was unable to fix Germany's problems. But Jumbo and PzJgr are right: The Reichswehr stayed "out" of politics during the Weimar republic, but I cannot see the elite, aristocratic officers corps accepting the KPD taking power...