Terror Deaths in Paris

I will not, I hope, get involved with the debate on strategy, who's to blame for the origins, etc...but I think it's time to be more aggressive as a united entity. ISIS will not end the terror. This was a coordinated attack that took planning and decision. It's clear after murdering 200,000 in Syria and Iraq and watching hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing the before mentioned countries, enough is enough. This is a war on Jihadists, not the Muslim population. Just get in there and let's end it, once and for all.

 

"Just get in there and let's end it" ..... fully agree with the sentiment but it won't be easy. Eliminating ISIS will create a void and there are widely different ideas as to who should fill that void so unity is unlikely to last. The French are not likely to have enough "boots" to do it alone and unless Iran, Turkey and Russia support the effort it's likely to fail. Getting those 3 to agree on anything and stick to it, far less actively cooperate, requires a diplomatic genius.

As usual the "a pessimist is a person who is glad to be proved wrong" rule applies here.

 

I'm gonna swim against the current here, so bear with me.

The Paris attacks are horrific by any measure, but we should not let it take us too far in any direction.

Absent this attack we had a pretty good week against ISIL. The Kurds retook a key city and a important road junction and even the Iraqi's had modest gains. Jihadi John seems to be on the right side of the dirt now and with their destruction of a Russian passenger jet, they had put themselves in the crosshairs of the great bear.

In real terms we are hurting them and will continue to do so.

Yes we should continue to support the Kurd's, but not to the expense of Turkey. They too are engaged against ISIL, however imperfectly, but lets be fair here none of us is doing what we could theoretically. If we break up Turkey we have a problem twice the size as Syria. Do we need another 5-8 million refuges?

I would say beef up what we are doing now. Airstrikes, more Special Op's (some working independently, some with native troops) closer coordination from Coalition members.

It isn't sexy and it won't solve the problem quickly but lets be honest with our selves, a massive deployment doesn't ensure a quick solution either considering how long we were deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

My two cents...this sort of thing is not new...September 11 was another in a long long string of attacks...there's plenty of mention of terrorist attacks during WW2....jeeps loaded with explosives etc etc...you watch old 70s 80s and 90s American tv shows and movies, and terrorists are mentioned or involved...the overall death toll is tiny compared to a 'War' scenario...we see market places bombed almost every night from Bagdad or some other location...it's now reached our shores, we will learn to live with it as they have...the best way to stop someone offending is to give them something to lose...

 

if American interests are at stake, we should deal with it ..if not, stay out.....Rwanda is a whole other thread.....but, we were not wrong to not get involved...

 

We could eliminate the current problem in weeks with about 100k troops. To control it it would take 10x that and there would always be an insurgency. Decades and thousand of American lives per year. We can't control Chicago and Detroit. Heck the local biggest town of 100k, the police can't control the violence.

Good luck in separating the jihad's. The brother or son of a dead civilian caught in the fight is a new jihad i.

 

This is the nuance, Lou. And it's interesting hearing it from a respectable moderate chap such as yourself,

The rote separation of ISLAM! and ISLAMISM! as seen on all soshul meeja at the mo is, while understandable, not enough (Other than that understandable, if not exactly harshly intellectual response to lazy bigotry).
This article keeps coming back to me. From the day after Lee Rigby's London beheading. 2013.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100218584/we-need-to-talk-about-islamism/

We can indulge in platitudinism so easily, but we skirt the serious conversations in too relaxed a manner. Certain quarters need to engage more seriously. Or they will go down the plughole with the murderous savages seen in Paris.

There are definitely 'issues' within Islam (and the other abrahamic religions, if I'm honest). They need discussing more seriously, and more openly.



These chaps get it:
https://www.facebook.com/exmuslims/photos/a.300568480046911.45152.108844332552661/658116944292061/?type=3

 

The Turks need a wake up call to get back on the secular road they were on for many years. This Erdogan and his Islamist party have gained enough control to rewrite their constitution and effectively make him president for life. He's an Islamist, aiding and supplying ISIS. Turkey is the main supply route for ISIS.

Turkey is absolutely NOT engaged against ISIS - their strikes are against the Kurds. Their heaviest strikes are against the Kurdish forces trying to shut the corridor into Turkey. The "strikes" against ISIS are on empty buildings and compounds with forewarning to ISIS contacts. It's a charade. Do some research beyond the mainstream media pablum and you'll find what I'm saying is true.

I don't think it would take much to tip Turkey back into the fold of civilized nations. It's about time we quit playing political charades and realized who our friends are and who the enemy is. Turkey is not a friend.

 

I am personally disgusted by those terrorists attacks. I think we should put as much energy to destroy those sub-human than we did when we destroyed the nazis during WWII.

 

Under the old "rules" though the major powers since WW2 were reluctant to broaden the scope. Not so today.

 

Mild quibble, not all wars were proxy, as the Falklands come to mind.

 

Well we can argue and discuss the finer points of conflict, but the bottom line going for us now is that we all now live in a new world so to speak. New rules, new game. We will have to see how it unfolds and spreads to each of our lives these days. Not a good thing gentlemen. Dark days ahead I'm afraid to say.

 

The French people is bruised :flag_france:
Thank you for your support

 

I still say those ***holes are cowars. I hope they catch the people who helped them do these murders. It might also be, that there were different units acting separately so that at least 2-3 would succeed.

 

the more astute of you should know that I'm very interested in humans and their nature....I was reading that after the one bomber was frisked, turned away, he then went away and ended his life...then another walked into a McDonalds and did same
what is it that makes these people kill themselves? for the suicide-killers in the US it's easy to figure out---they have lost all hope, and/or are so angry that they have lost all ''human'' feeling......
do they recruit suicide bombers that have no hope and are angry??...suicide overwhelms the great need of self survival..
at the last minute are they thinking ''omg--I don't want to die''
or are they thinking ''I will be a hero/martyr?? like the kamikazes? they believe in something so much, they will end the world for themselves?..
the terrorists suicide bombers are a lot different in their culture....is that it?? their culture molds them as such?? that's what I think..the environment, teachings, propaganda, etc is so great, that

 

I believe and fear that you are correct. And, perhaps, in ways we do not anticipate.

 

You need to understand the fundamental incompatibilities of modern westernized philosophy with fundamental Islam. Of which there are many, however here is what I believe is the most important aspect for your question.

100 years ago it was seen as the pinnacle of Western manhood to give his life for a woman.Followed by giving his life for his country and then his religion. The modern western philosophy is becoming one of selfishness. This is why its hard for many young westerners to understand the suicide bombers.

Fundamental Islam still believes that giving ones life for their religion and their family are the pinnacle of manhood. So suicide bombers are sacrificing themselves, all their hope and dreams, to protect what is most important to them.

Is it right or wrong? The winners will decide just as they've always done.