Turkey shoots down Russian jet

As the world turns.
Clear as mud. Enjoyed reading that though. Thanks eh.

 

Dave55, thanks for clearing things up ! Hate to say it but it is probably as true as an explanation of the Near East can be.

BTW, The Turks are saying they started their 10 warnings as the Russian jet approached their border, The Su 24 was in Turkish territory for 17 seconds before being hit. It subsequently crashed in Syrian territory with pilots bailing out but were killed before reaching ground by the Syrian rebels that had had been bombing. These are the "good " rebels the good/bad US is backing. Nice fellows shooting pilots in the air in chutes. But when they take over they will become "good". and be kind to women and children.

I agree with Skipper, my thoughts are with the pilots. I do not think matters are going to improve because of this.

 

did I misread or miss some thing in a post?...where did you see 17 seconds? although I agree something is fishy....2 minutes going that fast would out it deeper into Turk area....

 

That report of 17 seconds came in the evening news reports. Expect more details over the next few days.

 

I heard that both sides have very different radar views about the incident...weird but not unusual in history...

 

Certainly not good to be shooting a pilots in chutes but pretty understandable. The air attacks on the Syrians have not just been targeted at the fighters but at civilians as well including chemical weapons. The rebels wouldn't necessarily have known whether the pilots and plane were Russian or part of Assad's forces and lacking much in the way of AA they were helpless against them in any case. Then Turkey shoots down a plane. I'm surprised in some ways that they only shot one of the pilots.

I can't get too worked up about them one way or the other. They volenteered (and were paid a bonus) to fight for a murderous regime. Probably did so thinking there was little danger. I don't in any way condone shooting pilots in their chutes but if anyone my thoughts are on the civilians that were in the area being bombed.

By the way heard this AM that the Russians rescued one of the pilots loosing a helicopter and at least one man in the process though.

Given the recent Russian record for veracity I would be surprised if it were any other way.

 

One report said the Su 24 was not going directly into Turkey but rather flew over a part of Turkey projecting into Syria. Latest reports say the navigator was rescued but one rescue helicopter was hit killing one. I fully agree with Belasar, more and clearer news will come out but with two sides reporting different views it may never truly be clear.

In any case it certainly adds tension to an already unbelievably complicated situation.

 

I think what may be happening here is that both the US and Russians are going after the oil trucks. This article mentions the US destroying ~300.
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/iraq/articles/20151125.aspx

It's possible that they got it wrong but that site has been pretty reliable especially for information like that.

 

A whole series of aticles on the issue. A number of different points of view and postions. Interspersed with some will be some quotes and/or my opinions:
http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2015/11/24/dod-unclear-whether-russian-jet-violated-turkish-airspace/76330548/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/11/24/putin-vows-tragic-consequences-turkey/76304154/

It is not at all clear that targets were terrorist. Certainly there were rebels in the area but some indiators were that the targets were villages and not military forces. Those reports maybe coming from Turkish sources though which means they shouldn't be considered completely reliable either. I don't see much heroic in attacking people who have no capablity of firing back in any case. Not much risk to their lives either, except of course if they ignore the possible reactions of the Turks to violations of their territory.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/11/25/turkey-russian-plane-downed/76358238/?hootPostID=cb7d1a769b66482228588fd676b7dc63

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/world/europe/turkey-syria-russia-military-plane.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/strike/2015/11/24/turkey-shoots-down-russian-jet-syrian-border/76302108/
Interesting that Putin calls Turkey a terrorist acomplice yet they have conducted raids that aided Daesh as well as supporting Assad who is arguably the worst terrorist in the region.
http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/24/audio-tuaf-warns-ruaf-su-24/

http://time.com/4125881/syrian-turkmen-rebels-downed-russian-warplane/#4125881/syrian-turkmen-rebels-downed-russian-warplane/

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/11/24/457220948/why-would-turkey-shoot-down-a-russian-plane?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=conflictzones

http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2015/11/putin-accusing-turkey-being-isis-allyand-hes-least-partly-right/123975/

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/11/24/downing-of-russian-jet-over-turkey-inevitable.html

And the rather chilling closeing comments:

 

Turkey is an ally of ISIS. They are the ones buying the oil and fuel from ISIS wells and refineries. The Russians are destroying that illegal trade. The Turkish Air Force is targeting the Kurds who are fighting ISIS. The few attacks the Turks have made on ISIS "targets" have been empty facilities. It's all a charade.

I don't know why we maintain the fiction of Turkey as a NATO ally. They aren't. The new government is another Islamist terror state.

Russia is filling a vacuum left by western inaction. We should have been supporting the Kurds and slapping Turkey down, so now Russia is filling that vacuum. I don't like it, but a Syria under Assad is better than a Syria under ISIS.

 

Topic joins its Sister Wives in the Stump.

 

I just read a Reuters article online which included:

President Tayyip Erdogan made no apology, saying his nation had simply been defending its own security and the "rights of our brothers in Syria".

Defending the "rights of our brothers in Syria" seems distinctly different from defending Turkish airspace.

From what I've seen, the border in that area is rather irregular, and the Su-24 only briefly entered a wedge of Turkish territory, which makes me wonder, where exactly was the F-16 when it fired, and what was the track of the missile? Most modern air-to-air weapons are theoretically all-aspect, but it's still most effective to engage from ahead or astern. The surviving navigator/weapons officer is quoted as saying the hit was in the rear of the aircraft, which seems consistent with the photos of it going down. Hopefully we'll get a complete picture sometime.

 

One of the sites I was on had the radar track of the F-16 (at least as supplied by Turkey) and it never left Turkish space.

I wouldn't call Turkey an ally of Daesh but like Russia their primary target hasn't been Daesh either. Both of those countries have been attacked by Daesh as well. On the other hand both have done things that helped Daesh as well as attacked them.

Along another line of thought I find it interesting that Putin invaded and took the Crimiea and supported a revolution in the Ukraine under the nominal pretext of protecting some Russians from some laws that likely wouldn't have been passed and then gets upset because the Turks shoot down a plane to protect some fellow Turks with in sight of their border. I'm not all that fond of the game Turkey is playing right now but it's a lot more above board than the one played by Russia.

 

that's on the mark : nothing more should be said . :waving:

 

To answer you question: because of Russia. Let's not forget, that Russia is still the bad guy, which still occupies Crimea, Abhasia, South Ossetia, Transnistria and wages war in Eastern Ukraine - to mention only the recent sins.

The fact that Russia at the moment has made few attacks against ISIS too, does not suddenly make Russia as a good guy - nor a potential ally of the West.

Otherwise I agree with your post.

 

No more salutes left today, so here's one this way...

 

That's very simplistic and ignores the very complicated mix of factions on the ground. All Kurds are not good guys. Most Kurds don't want to be associated with the PKK and see them as the terrorists they are and have been for decades. If you're not careful you'll just be trading one terror group, ISIS for another the PKK. You also have to be careful when reading news stories and opinion pieces because they tend to lump all Kurds in together not understanding there are numerous factions some good,some bad. That's like the mistake the US President and State Dept. made when they decided to arm and train anti-Assad rebel forces without insuring they fully understood the motivations of each group. Then you ended up with Islamic Radical rebel factions fighting moderate rebel factions both of which recieved arms and training from us! Many of the radical factions either joined ISIS or turned their weapons over to them.
On the ground the border is not evident. People that live on the Turkey side are related to,friends of people on the Syrian side and interact, intermix, associate, etc. Turkey is supporting non-ISIL, anti-Assad rebels, these same rebels we are supporting. Those rebels derive support and personnel from towns and villages on both sides of the border. Syria has conducted military operations including airstrikes against rebels and civilians in these areas. Russia, while nominally battling ISIS, is more concerned with propping up Assad's regime and has struck these moderate rebel (anti-Assad) groups and associated civilian supporters, along with hitting ISIL groups and areas they control (which are also anti-Assad).
Some things that need to be considered before condemning Turkey.
They have been hit with Syrian airstrikes flying Russian made and supplied aircraft. How do they know if they're Russians or Syrians?
They have a right to protect their citizens from either Syrian or Russian attacks.
All evidence points to an actual air space violation by Russia, should not Turkey be allowed to protect its citizens pre-emptively instead of in retaliation if thier people are hit?
Turkey has as much, or more to lose, due to its proximity, if ISIS continues to grow and expand in the region. It's population it largely Sunni Muslim, as are the majority of Kurds. ISIS/ISIL is a radical Sunni group and radicalization of Turkish Sunnis could present a serious threat to the secular government. ISIL/ISIS seeks to overthrow the secular governments in the region and establish a theocratic Calphate.

 

Russia was definitely a bad guy in WW2 by invading Poland but still became our ally, no? this conflict ''seems'' to be a classic labyrinth of who's whom....a supreme power needs to take control to end it

 

Russia became an ally in WWII because they were at war with what was clearly the bigger threat. At this point in time it's not clear that it is the case, indeed an argument could be made for Russia being a bigger threat than Daesh at least in the long run. It's also not at all clear just how much the Russian intervention in Syria is actually helping in regards to Daesh. From some reports I've read all of the rebel factions are gaining additional recruits and support because of it.

 

You are missing the most important complication - ISIS funds itself with oil and fuel from northern Iraq and Syria. Who is buying that illegal oil? Turkey. Turkey is funding ISIS. Turkey is also the channel for ISIS weapons and recruits into Syria.

Turkey is no longer the secular democratic state and ally that it once was. Erdogan is an Islamist, has compete control and has already introduced legislation that will effectively make him president-for-life.

As for PKK being terrorist, perhaps, but if Turkey had not demolished 5000 Kurd villages (look it up) over the last few decades there would be no PKK. I would also point out that Turkey is busy bombing Peshmerga and YPG forces which have absolutely nothing to do with Turkey. These were the people that were OUR allies in northern Iraq after Turkey betrayed us in the Iraq war. It was those people allied with our special forces who chased Saddam's army out of the north after the Turkish betrayal, when they denied our forces entry through Turkey.