pampa14's Aviation Click Bait

Ah yes...the legendary 189 "Uhu".

Gee, the nightfighters could certainlt have harvested large numbers of bombers if ths program had been enlarged.

Was it possible that industrial espionage played a role in these failure after failures on the aviation factory floors?

The 262 was an exception, held up more by Hitler's taste for a high speed light bomber than anything else. But it was produced in secret, so unlikely to be tampered with in the production/construction process.

I realise not every airframe can be a winner, but it seems illogical that so many aircraft projects all failed at about the same period of the war. When one considers that German aviation was no slouch in adoption of new ideas, nor in their application, the timing of this "slump period" in their aircraft industry is more than a little suspect..

Peenemunde was compromised, and bombed at the precise point when it looked like their research might just bear fruit into a scary programme. So why not other aspects of German industry, particularly aviation, getting the same survelliance treatment. Sabotage, harrassment, bribery or corruption, could all make a difference , sometimes by many months, of a weapon in the later stages of development being kept back to sort last minute bugs that have arisen.

 

AFAIK, the 189 ad hoc nightfighter was only used on the Eastern Front and was only effective against the older slower Soviet a/c, and quickly fell into disuse once faster Soviet aircraft and American lend-lease B-25s appeared on the scene(1944).

 

let´s face it, that 2 engine planes, will always be inferior to fast 1 engine fighters. However the 2 eng. heavy fighter or destroyer makes sense if you have air superiority (so other fighters can protect the "destroyer" against enemy fighters, a bit strange sounding sentence somehow). Germay had lost air superiority in 44, so imo these projects made no sense anymore, except night fighter perhaps.

Other story for allies, but even those had problems with 2 eng. planes, exception being DH Mosquito. But it was only so fast without armament. Could not be catched by most other fighters but also could not fight against them - only flee. P38 had good success in the pacific and limited in ETO (as fighter, as a bomber it was good cause allies had air superiority)....

Btw: Language in OP site should be Portugese.

 

The Allied intelligence and sabotage effort were certainly more effective than the axis ones.

However the main problem was, that German companies (even in midst of WW2) were not under real control and centralisation (like the Allied ones and esp. the RUSSIANS). This was especially true of tank production. But also plane production suffered (as other weapons). Another factor would be that Germans were (sometimes still are), engineers by nature (I mean some of em) and they want to try and experiment with things. And always strive to build to best (ofc today not always anymore true), but the best technically is mostly not the best in terms of production numbers and price.

Examples ?

- Tiger I,II (Sturmtiger, Jagdtiger, Ferdinant etc.) & Panther.
- Some heavy arty pieces or railroad arty
- BF109 & JU88 (those were top3 in their class at early war time, but 109 production should be maybe stopped in favor of FW mid war, however Messerschmidt was a mighty person and had friends in the RLM & the Nazis)
- Most other german bombers (except 88) were all NOT top of class but mediocre mid and late war (only early war good)
- DO335, FW190 series and maybe ME262 were the most promising fighter types, however were all delayed by orders from Führer or RLM or by lack of resources)

 

There are volumes that could be written on the inefficiency of the German aircraft production in WW2. ER Hooten's "Eagle in Fl;ames" has a chapter with good examples.

Wrong people in charge.
The technical leadership was given to Ernst Udet who lacked the qualifications and temperament to manage a technical programme.
Aircraft ordered without specifications allowing the manufacturers to do whatever they wanted.
Reducing the time to test prototype - on dubious advice from engineer.s.
Cancellation of all long range projects after 1940 as "the war was over"
No control over production. One new production plan issued every six weeks. by 1944 the production schedules were on version 244.
Too many design changes. Masses of subtypes - 60 sub types for Me109F &G In 1942 20% of production lost through design changes.

Structural problems
- .inefficient industry with too much craft and not enough mass production (Manpower rose by 50% but production by 15%)
- Compartmentalisation between engineering departments.
- Chaotic and corrupt nazi state

Here is one example. The Ju 88 contract for Henschel was cancelled and replaced by one to produce the Hs 129, cancelled when production tooling half complete, and replaced by a contract to produce the Ju188, which was cancelled just as production was about to being in favour of the Me410 and then in turn replaced by a contract to produce the Ju388. This was cancelled in 1944 favour of single engine fighters, by which time Henschel had failed to build a single bomber!..

A state of affairs for which as a Briton I owe some historic gratitude.

 

Probably true, however Britain would be treated better (even if you had lost, but thats OT here).

I think we also forgot the main reponsible person for failure of Luftwaffe = Göring.

 

Lets not let Goring take the blame for a whole host of things that could have been different.

Great as Gorings misunderstanding, he had lots of help. Udet for a start, and Messerschmidt himself. And I'm sure Hugo Junkers was lax as well. The German four engined program was all of the time talked about, and little achieved of operational worth.

Should Goring have been injured critically, there were shortage of other people who could actually get results with the Luftwaffe, like stopping the bombers for a long length of time, or getting the Luftwaffe to co-operate much more with the Kreigsmarine.

I also believe Speer was getting good results through zealous use of questionable labour conditions. I'm sure even Russian factories would have been more pleasant places to work compared to some of Speers jobsites.

 

In one sense you are both right.

The Nazi state was a corrupt organisation based on crony-ism. The "Fuhrer Prinzip" seems to have been essentially divide and rule with dignitaries competing for power. The Nazi war machine was full of squabbling empire builders. Many of the individuals concerned were high on some form of drug - probably to deaden themselves to the lunacy that they had created.

Heroin addict Gorring owed his position to his prowess as a politician and not as an airforce general or staff trained officer. He could lead but not administer. His subordinates were selected as balances on each other and hated each other. No love lost between Udet, Jesschonneck and Milch. When Milch was appointed head of service to cover Goring - Jeschonneke went sick.

Milche was a highly competent administrator who could have been a good head of service - but threatened Goering. who brought in Jeshonneck. Alcoholic drug user Udet was an old buddy of Goering and completely unsuitable, A senior job in OKL was a poisoned chalice and qualified candidates such as Kesselring and Richthofen kept well away - though Kesselring did have some central role.

Milch sorted out the mess after Udet's death. (Udet managed to kill three generals with his buillet. Two others including Molders were killed in aircraft accidents en route to his funeral.)

The GHerman training organisation was also a mess and their losses through accidents were far higher than endured by the Western Allies.

 

TV history shows often mention that Hitler insisted that all bombers, even very large ones, be capable of dive bombing.
Is this true? Huge engineering handicap. no?

 

The issue arose in the 1930s before the development of bomb sights like the Lofte Norden and SABS which improved the accuracy of level bombing. Udet was the great Dive bombing enthusiast - and demonstrated the oncept with an American Curtiss Dive Bomber. Under Udet's techncial leadership every bomber - including the Do217 and He177 were expected to dive bomb. . The requirement for the Ju88 to dive bomb added enough weight to probably cut 50mph from the maximum speed of what was originally a schnell bomber.

 

Howdie, you guys know that "Devils General" movie is said to be modelled after Ernst Udet ?

I only found this trailer at youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bo2JSiZwaY

and a single scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vSasEZpyVc

 

Hiya...Subtitles in english would be nice. Nein sprecken ze deutsch.

 

More than you think young Poppy... : )

 

A small clarification, but it's Messerschmitt, not Messerschmidt.

 

Presented as a triumph of propaganda regime of Benito Mussolini with the prototype breaking many records, their entry into operational service does not live up to expectations. The following link provides a full report with information and photos of this aircraft. I hope you enjoy and I count on your visit.


http://aviacaoemfloripa.blogspot.com.br/2011/03/breda-ba88-lince.html

 

Thanks Otto, it took me a while to figure out this was about an aircraft and the headlines makes the identification easier.

 

There is a saying that if it looks right it is right. The plane kinda "looks" heavy to me. too much wing and engine nacelles.

 

Designed as an unarmed reconnaissance aircraft, the Heinkel He 119 never went into production, precisely because of the lack of weapons. The following link provides a complete report with information and photos of this fabulous airplane. I hope you enjoy the article and count on your visit.


http://aviacaoemfloripa.blogspot.com.br/2011/03/heinkel-he-119.html

 

The Germans certainly had some innovative ideas! Thanks for sharing!