Monty v. Patton at Falaise ?

If I get a chance to wake up properly.........ugh what a night !

my feelings is that probably no one on the ground for the Allies could of stopped the II SS Pz. Korps from funneling out to the east. The smoke was terrible and all the carnage, especially damged and destroyed equipment blocking the roads.......and the horses.......barf ! The Germans were bent on one thing, and that was escape, even if they were oveeerwhelmed by supeerior numbers of Polish Shermans on the heights overlooking the narrow sunken roads, it was not going to stop the retreat and escape of the few.

~E

 

13 August the Germans made their first large-scale attempt to withdraw.

That morning 37 P-47 pilots of the 36th Group found 800 to 1,000 enemy vehicles of all types milling about in the pocket west of Argentan. They could see American and British forces racing to choke off the gap. They went to work. Within an hour the Thunderbolts had blown up or burned out between 400 and 500 enemy vehicles. The fighter-bombers kept at it until they ran out of bombs and ammunition. One pilot, with empty gun chambers and bomb shackles, dropped his belly tank on 12 trucks and left them all in flames. All told, on the 13th, XIX TAC fighter-bombers destroyed or damaged more than 1,000 road and rail vehicles, 45 tanks and armored vehicles, and 12 locomotives. Inside the pocket they reduced 10 enemy delaying action strong points to rubble.

More:

http://www.usaaf.net/ww/vol5/vol5pg6.htm

 

Erich, are you sure this was Langanke. I mean neither Weidinger, nor Werner, nor Enseling could remember who the Pz.Komandant was, the only thing they could remember is that he was awarded with the EK 1st class after the action and that he wasn't too cooperative at the start.

In any case if the Allies would have pushed more decisively no Panzer Division could help them, especially since both German divisions were extremely weakened with only about a battalion of infantry and about 10 panzers each. As for the number of soldiers being rescued from the Falaise pocket the number (according to Weidinger) is 40,000 naturally most of the support and supply units were pulled out earlier before the Allies closed the gap.

 

I've read all the Falaise posts and would simply add this personal interview of my Uncle
( who was in 5AD "Victory" ) and was in what he called "the jump-off Sherman from the American side of the Falaise gap..."

My Unc said basically that they were refueling and reammoing and PRAYING that "just this once...just this once...they wouldn't listen to the Old Man... although we KNEW Georgie would figure out a way to close off the flow of running, escaping Germans, there would probably be no survivors in our unit as we would be the first unit thrust into that stream..."

I'll have to go along with my Uncle that Georgie was BEGGING to bag the nazi troops, not playing into someone's hands by "opposing Monty" as one nazi is quoted above...( since what he seemed to be trying for was a Cannae double envelopement )

That quoted nazi needed to read some of Georgie's entries in his war diary for the "real skinney" on Falaise from Patton's perspective, as Georgie thought not entirely annihilating the nazi troops after closing off the the Falaise Gap was one of the allied command's worst mistakes of the war...

I believe the validity of Georgie's claim was later proven in the Ardennes by some of the survivors and escapers from the Falaise Gap against the same allied commander(Bradley )...

Patton believed that when you have a hold of the skillet handle, crush the skulls of the enemy with it...If not, you will have to do it later for more cost.

 

with my Opa brain it may have been another Pz kommandeur Doppel but I am almost sure he mentioned this in a movie clip I have. Fritz was leading the spearhead with about 5 Panthers. One was hit and he noted the Shermans on the hill and dispatched them with the help of another. I'll look through a reference or two this week. Rioght now I cannot tell the left hand from the right, over 350 miles on the road one way..........uk

 

Interesting post, Texas Fred - thanks.

The point is right, and I still feel that Allied Tactical airpower should have done it. I must read deeper to try to find out how and why the Germans made it to the Seine ( via places such as Bourgtheroulde ) relatively unmolested.

 

A great map and some nice pics:

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-vetscor/947628/posts

The Canadians in the Falaise Pocket

http://users.pandora.be/dave.depickere/Text/D-DayText/falaise.html

The allied problems:

http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/CHRON/Aug_15.htm

Initial Problems
Two disasters opened the battle:
The night before, August 14/15, Germans had captured a copy of the Canadian plans from a Canadian officer who got lost.
Bomber Command had been asked to bomb six targets in the Quesnay-Fontaine-le-Pin-Bons-Tassilly area, and sent 144 aircraft with stop-watches to do a timed run from the coast. They were warned not to bomb before the elapsed time. As the bombers passed overhead, Canadian troops on the ground noticed that the bomb bays were open, and fired yellow flares to alert the friendly aircraft to their position. Unfortunately, no one had briefed the crews as to Army signals, nor had the army been told that the Pathfinders were dropping yellow T1s. Some bomber crews assumed the yellow flares marked their targets. They became confused and dropped their bombs: from 1441 to 1459 and from 1514 to 1518 at St-Aignan; from 1514 to 1520 and from 1532 on, at Haut Mesnil. In total 65 Canadian soldiers were killed outright.

The smoke laid down by the Canadian artillery was meant to help the attackers but often it benefited the retreating Germans more, allowing them to fight effective rear guard actions (??)

16th August

It was obvious to Montgomery that they could never close the gap between Falaise and Argentan in time. Instead, he decided to close the trap farther east along the River Dives, between Trun and Chambois. He asked Bradley to send a force northeast to Chambois to link up with the Canadians and Poles already there. He then told Crerar once again that it was imperative the Canadians take Trun quickly and hold it.

18th August

Polish Armoured Division units reached the outskirts of Chambois by nightfall, but were spread over 10 miles of hilly countryside in numbers too few to close the gap. Their key positions were the twins hill "Maczuga" or mace where the Germans mounted intense combat in support of retreating soldiers.

Major David Currie V.C.

http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/VC_Recipients/currie.htm

 

Martin,

on several books I have on the Falaise pocket, the bridge at Putanges is not getting much notice except it was the only bridge left over Orne left, and on some days it seems the bad weather made flying impossible but otherwise no reason why it was not destroyed ( if seen necessary ) unless the Germans had camouflaged it and had loadsa AA guns around ?? The Germans did blow it just before the allied got there but you surely knew that.

Anyway, here´s a little something on the Seine thing:

Michael Reynolds Sons of the Reich

War diary of the Fifth Panzer Army records 25,000 vehicles of all types were transported across the Seine between 20th and 24th August.

Although some 300 barges were destroyed in air attacks between 16th and 23rd August bad weather after that made it difficult for allied air force to maintain attacks on the ferry and other crossing sites.

Dietrich quotes though: "The Seine crossing was almost as great a disaster as the Falaise pocket!"

The Germans had to leave most of the heavy equipment again.

 

Bought Ripley´s "Patton unleashed" on Friday.
The man has made the Steel storm books so I´d expect him to have some true facts here as well on the Normandy and France battles.I´ll tell more once I get further in the book.


http://www.bizave.com/bstore/book_pagebb6504.html

 

I can, unfortunately, speak as one that was in the vicinity of Falaise at that time.

No arguments, no discussion, Quite simple and straight forward, the reason why the neck of the bag that contained the German armies at Falaise was never completely closed? Patton was off on an "Ego" trip, capturing great stretches of the empty French country side, where there were no Enemy for miles.

But there! who would expect him to get stuck into a real fight, with a real enemy? The man captured so much empty territory, that he ran out of fuel and was stuck. Prat!

Meanwhile, the Americans,the British, Canadians and the Poles fought like bloody Tigers to close the neck, for here was that one great chance to finish the war, and save the lives of thousands of Allied troops. later, those same troops paid for that failure to close the neck, it was more important for some to capture areas empty of the enemy.
Sapper Brian

 

I bought Monty´s memoirs and he does not go into details about these situations that would help to say who was right and who was wrong.

I´m rather surprised actually.

 

Interesting detail from the book Death traps by Belton Y. Cooper.

Don´t know if he heard this or made his own conclusions but:

18.8. Field Marshall Kluge ( On August 15, Hitler replaced Field Marshall von Kluge with Model BTW )apparently anticipating our action , had moved his major gasoline dumps forty miles to the east, which gave the Germans sufficient fuel to head east across Northern France...

 

I read a while ago ( sorry the source book is somewhere under the other books at the moment ) that "Das Reich" at least (and "Hohenstaufen"?) after getting out of the pocket turned around and attacked after a short breather to keep the pocket open. Actually I never thought of that before, I just thought everybody kept on running....

 

Yes indeed - that's what Erich & I were discussing on another thread recently. II SS Panzer Division regrouped in the Vimoutiers-Exmes sector and then mounted a vigorous counterattack on the Polish positions at Mont Ormel, thus buying some brief but valuable time for more German forces to escape the 'Pocket'.

 

and to this day I am still scratching my head "with what" against an overwhelmingly superior Allied might. most of the German armor which had not been destroyed in 1 to 1 fighting was left abandoned through lack of fuel or the general mayhem in the retreat for every dog for himself, I suppose the odd Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck were kept handy for the defensive actions, but previously I had mentioned some 5 Panthers from D.R.

 

i think bradley and paton were afraid of being smashed up by the remains of 5 panzer and ss divs.we already know that a corps could have closed the gap but they were inexperieced troops.it would not look good in the papers back home in america would it.brad and paton decided to blame monty for not attacking fast enough,talk about passing the buck,they were scared,pure and simple.yours,4thwilts.

 

then why did they not block the gap.paton was told by bradley to get his troops out of the gap.bradley says himself he did not want a broken neck.was it that they were afraid of friendley fire,did american soldiers not know the difference between khaki and field grey uniforms.monty cannot be blamed,he ordered army commanders to disregared boundaries.there were certainly green american divs in the immediate area,i believe one was the u.s 80th div from memory,maybe the u.s 85th div,why were these soldiers ordered to halt.what about the 2nd french armd div,why was this unit not ordered to attack northward by its american corps commander.none of these units were fighting well entrenched german troops.a lot of press about me thinks.yours,4th wilts.