Lancaster Bomber 514 Squadron

"Flamin'Onions"
Many discussions have been held concerning this subject. I suspect they usually end up with a hung jury. Here is my contribution on this.
Our introduction came on our very first Op. On a second dickie trip the skipper of a brand new crew is usually detailed to go as an observer with an experienced crew. In our case the pilot of a seasoned crew from "C" flight was assigned to accompany me and my crew on our introductoty trip. F/S "Toppy" Topham occupied the flight engineer's seat on my right as we took off for Le Mans on this auspicious outing. It was May 19th 1944.
Approaching the target we came under heavy anti-
aircraft fire. For the first time we saw glowing tennis balls floating lazily up toward us till suddenly with a burst of speed they went streaking on past us. I saw this mesmerizing curtain of fire cascading up right in front of us with no chance of getting through it. I hollered something like
"What's the form Toppy?". He yelled back "Straight ahead!". We did.
A few seconds later I saw a huge explosion just ahead of us. The bomb aimer was giving directions for the bombing run. On my exclamation "There goes
a plane!" Toppy replied "That's flamin' onions. They're like scarecrows". I didn't have time to say that I had just seen part of a Lancaster undercarriage go tumbling past us.
Then from the bomb aimer came "Bomb Doors Open"
and "Left,Left-Steady,Steady,Bombs Gone, Bomb Doors Closed". This last phrase was often greeted by audible sighs of relief from the crew. The navigator now gave me a course to begin our homeward journey.
We had just settled onto our new heading when over the intercom burst the words "Fighter Port Go". The gunners mics were always left open for just such urgencies. This attack was by an Me 109
which we endured by the prompt action by all concerned. This was followed by another Me 109 attack and then one by a FW 190.
Back to the subject matter. I have never been sure as to whether these scarecrows actually existed or were simply propaganda to sooth our nerves or prevent a state of alarm among aircrew.
Would love to hear from anyone with comments pro or con that you may have read about or seen.
Alex Campbell Skipper of "C" Charlie

 

They also used the term in WWI and I found this in a WWI forum;

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-9836.html

 

Good Morning,

More on "flaming onions" form this site:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/user/28/u1572628.shtml

quote from site:
"Also we were given to understand that the Germans had an ack ack shell which simulated an aircraft being hit, its object being to demoralise the bomber force. It was known among crews as a 'Flaming Onion'. After the war it was found that there was no such shell and what we saw was in fact aircraft being shot down. Of course in daylight there was no disguising a direct hit."

 

Very interesting story about the "flaming onions", I never heard about these .
Something else: A while ago I said I would try to find out more about the bombing operation on Chateaudun. This is what I got from the departemental archives: it mentions the bombing of the marshalling yard on July 31st and long delay bombs that exploded up to 48 hours later.
There is an air picture of the eastern part of the town, not very far from St Cloud, so I guess you must have heard everything. The place was bombed again because the July 7th and july 14th attacks only partly destroyed the german logistics.

http://www.archives28.fr

 

Thanks for the replies to "Flamin" Onions". The links to WW1 Forum were interesting TA 152. You do a lot of digging. The bbc link looks rather authentic Wayne. Skipper 67 the info from the archives is great stuff and with photos too.
"The Bomber Command War Diaries" mentions the Lancasters of the Master Bomber and his deputy collided over the target and crashed. 1 other Lancaster was lost. (LeMans May 19/44). It could have been one of those that I saw.
Bye for now EAC

 

I will need to dig more about these pictures. They are daylight pictures from 31 july and I believe we are looking for night bombings. There is however another Lancaster crash near Chateaudun on August 3rd when ND811 F2-T from 635 sqn crashed at Senantes in Eure et Loir. (four survivors all evaded )I will check out the names and see if they ended up at Freteval too .However this is not the one that collided, as it was hit by Flak. The aircraft flew over Chateaudun on an operation to Trossy (north of Paris, V1 depot)

 

RE: DS842
Hi all- I am in contact with Robert Langley's daughter in England.
Her father flew this Lancaster while posted at Waterbeach.
Any photos out there?

Wendy Flemming

 

Re; Freteval Forest

Lou Greenburg's son has written a book about Lou's life in the RAF and in it are listed names of those who spent time in Freteval.
If anyone is interested, I can add them to this site.
Wendy

 

This is Alex C back on track, a bit wobbly but improving. Wendy, does Lou add any names not on Frank Haslam's extensive list? I hope to submit a short bit about inverted flight in the near future.
Alex

 

Hello Mr Campbell, good to see you back on track. I haven't had the opportunity to return to Saint Cloud en Dunois yet, but I probably will before the end of the year and will try to find the Arthur farm for you. I will go there without being in a hurry so I'll take plenty of pictures this time. If I have time, I will follow the directions you took and go to Freteval and get a picture of the memorial.

 

Mr Campbell I may have some new interesting information. I beleive I have located the area where the Arthur famr could be and am now hesitating between two tiny villages only. If you have access to a detailled atlas of the area you can easily see that that the runways from the Chateaudun base are only a few meters away. For this reason the population has dwindled there after the war. The first place is called Baigneaux and is west of sT Cloud , population 199. The second place is called Boirville, which is right next to it. The interesting thing is that one of the farmers rents his rooms to tourists and you can see it online. It would be unbelievable it this was the place where the Arthurs lived , but it would at least be one of his neigbours . I really have to go there myself and check with my own eyes. the site is: www.baigneaux.com

 

Some more elements confirm the village of Baigneaux rather than Boirville. The Flak batteries which defended the western part of the Chateaudun base runwyas were at Lutz en Dunois, Moirville and Boiville. Lutz en Dunois was heavily occupied . The roof of the church had been taken off for the installation of a Flak battery in the tower. Moirville had another battery and Boirville had three (two 88 and probably a smaller one, I have to check that out). Everyday the Germans would commute from Lutz to Boiville for maintenance. They also had a soccer field for crews who relaxed and the houses were billeted. Therefore I doubt that the resistance had a hiding place in those two villages. The other possibility being Baigneaux. I will therfore focuss on this place. I am getting closer.

 

Hi Alex- Wendy here- glad to see that you are aboard.
Where can I check out the names on Frank Haslam's list?

Wendy

 

Wendy, if you have trouble finding the Frank HASLAM list it is also available on the Forcedlanding site

http://perso.orange.fr/forcedlanding/freteval.htm

if you have trouble with the language let me know but a list is a list, so it should be ok. Also don't rely too much on these names . This list was made in 1944 and used by everybody ever since, It should be used a hint , not evidence, as it is uncomplete.

There is also a book about the Freteval evaders published in England.
http://www.tbpcontrol.co.uk/TWS/CoverImages_TBP/187/293/1872939805.jpg

 

Skipper,

Once again thanks for your work on this interesting story. That would indeed be amazing if that B&B was the Arthur farm house. The family who now operates it would probably find this facet of the house's history interesting.
Dad is recuperating from a major operation, he continues to follow this story with great interest and should be back posting in the near future. I talked to him by phone a few minutes ago, he studied the pictures of the B&B and thinks the Arthur house may have been smaller then the one in the picture, but is not certain.

Wendy, the other Freteval list should be here:
http://www.rafinfo.org.uk/rafescape/freteval/sherwood_register.htm

Regards, E.W. Campbell

 

Please send my best wishes for the recovering of your dad. I will keep on looking. I have some holidays in November and will try to make it to those villages once more.

 

Mr Campbell, this little map will show you how close Baigneaux is from the Chateaudun base. I have also underlined St cloud. You will also see the villages (Boiville, Moirville and Lutz)I mentionned earlier for the Flak batteries

 

Skipper, thanks for posting the map. The airfield indicated on the map, is it the same one used by the Luftwaffe during WW2? Baigneaux is certainly close.

E.W. Campbell

 

That's right. It is the very same base, at the same location. It just got bigger after the war and grew towards Chateaudun.

 

Finally- Inverted flight:
Yes, I can lay claim to having flown a Lancaster
while inverted. It came about one summer night in 1944. We were on a southerly course over Holland on our way to the target.
We were familiar with the corkscrew maneuver
having successfully used it more than our share of times. We had shortened the patter to three terse words "Fighter Port Go!" (or Starboard as required).This warning usually came from the rear gunner alerting the pilot to commence evasive action immediately.
We had just observed the first target markers going down some 30 miles up ahead when "Fighter Port Go!" blared over the intercom. I was just rolling the aircraft 90 degrees to port (port wing down)when there came another and more urgent request "Fighter Port Go Skipper!".Right away I rolled the Lanc another 90 degrees to port.In split seconds this placed us completely upside down.The nose began dropping immediately as we gathered speed at an alarming rate.
Cutting back on the throttles I was distressed to find the control column was virtually immovable.We had been well warned against using elevator trim in just such a predicament.However with help from the flight engineer we managed to get all 32 tons of us to round out and eventually level off.
As you can picture it we were now going the wrong way in a one way bomber stream.We could continue straight on and diminish the chance of a mid-air or do a U-turn and risk a broad side.I chose the latter and was able to join the stragglers of the first wave after one jarring interuption as we hit a very recently vacated slip-stream.
The attack was caried out by two Me 109's. How the two pilots found themselves in such strategic positions we may never know, good luck or good management.The timing would be so critical.They must have been quite surprised by our sudden disappearance as the gunners saw no more of them.
The upcoming target we attended to without serious problems.Taking stock of our aircraft we discovered some incoveniences. One of the ammo containers had spewed shells all over the fuse. The navigators instruments had to be retrieved from various hiding places and the main gyro for the distant reading compass had tumbled disrupting the repeating stations for about 20 minutes. Luckily Polaris was visible giving me a bearing to begin the trip home.
Those of you more familiar with fighter tactics may know about this type of attack, in daylight yes but hardly at night.
Skipper67 thanks for the effort you're putting in and all of you for your patience.
Skipper of C Charlie Alex Campbell