Lancaster Bomber 514 Squadron

Thank you for that story ! I was wondering if there was a favorite spot in a night bomber stream that crews liked, such as the front, middle, or the last of the stream ? I have read that the Short Sterling crews always ended up at the bottom and sometimes had bombs dropped on them and that the day bombers did not like the rear of the formation.

Also did crews prefer going on smaller raids or large 500+ aircraft raids ? I would guess small would be simpler but perhaps there was more safety in numbers ?

Anouther question I had was at the time you flew did the crews have any idea of the high causility rates bomber command was having or did they keep that quite ?

 

The story about the inverted flight is a juicy one. I have never even considered this possible. It must have been incredibly stressing and scary.
Thank you for sharing this with us.
Ragarding St Cloud I did not have the opportunity to return there again this month , but I will as soon as possible. I have a friend who is helping me with the escapes routes from Chateaudun to Freteval. Also my neigbour, a 95 old lady who has tended Commonwealth graves as long as she could walk, gave me a 1988 newspaper article which shows Stanley Lawrence's visit at Freteval and at his crash site near Chartres.

 

Alex, do have a date in summer of 44 of this "inverted " flight ? trying to confirm possibly the Bf 109G unit

Erich

 

Alex :

A big THANK-YOU for serving during the war . . . .

Erich ~

 

Yes, and also for learning the computer and sharing your experiences with us.

 

Your comments and feelings are appreciated as well as your knowledgeable questions. I am assembling bits of info regarding your queries.With Wayne's help we have come up with Homberg as the target for the "inverted flight" night. It was July 2o/44 with H-Hour being 0120 hrs. More coming soon.
Alex

 

Alex :

NJG's 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 scored this terrible night with NJG 6 operating in the Homberg area.

JG 300 Wilde Sau had gone over with it's single engine Fw's and 109's to counter the US heavy bomber threat at night. I./NJG 11 with the Bf 109G-6 was not operating till mid-August of 44 so that would leave a possiblity of I./NJGr 10 operating both the Fw 190A-6 and A-8 plus Bf 109G-6's. They were fielded out of WErneuchen which is NW of Berlin .....a long way to fly ///

JG 301 was also present as they were also still in the night defense role with 109's protecting the southern portion of the Reich ~ so this maybe our Geschwader that came up against the Homberg raiders

hope this is not too confusing

v/r Erich ~

 

let me add some further details about JG 301.

The I. gruppe was stationed out of France while the II. and the IV./JG 301 were based in the south to protect Rumania and the important oil fields.

One loss reported as a Bf 109G-6 pilot bailed out of his stricken 109 after combat on the Belgium/Holland border from I./JG 301 .......... hmmmmmmm this is sounding to me more and more like the gruppe we are looking for

 

Erich could this be the gruppe based at Schleissheim, Germany?

 

the stab of JG 301 was based there from Janaury to September of 44

I. JG 301 was based at Epinoy from June to August 26, 44

II. and III. gruppen were based in the south to protect the southern regions. All a/c of the 3 gruppen were Bf 109G-6's until September of 44 when the 109's were out and the newer Fw 190A-8's and A-9 were put in

E

 

Erich and Skipper,

I have come across a reference to Lancaster ME858 J1 - J of 514 squadron that went down near Hunsel, Holland the night of July 20/21 1944 on the raid to Homberg. The Pilot was F/O Douglas Millar.

Do you have any information on the aircraft involved in this attack? Could be the same unit involved in Dad's "inverted flight" attack.

 

I have approx. 30 Lancasters shot down this night by the twin engine NF Geschwader, nothing by JG 301 but that does not mean they did not score. What is bothersome is that some areas are not even listed in the kills listings/claims. Of these 6 are listed iwth areas of Venlo, Roermond, Dordrecht, Volkel, Apeldoorn. Nearly all scored by Bf 110G-4's of II. and III./NJG 1 in the area of Holland.

If Stevin is close by he may be able to fill in better than me from a more personal level with his data.

there was one claim put in by I./NJG 6, a Lancaster at 01.34 hrs WNW of Homberg by Ofw. Schmidt

 

There's a lot going on again. Here are some more
reflections. I preferred to be positioned in the forward section of the stream. There was always the hope of surprise although seldom achieved.The target was usually more readily identified before the smoke and dust clouds began to obscure it. There was a sense of pride on being able to bring back a good photo.
The risk of collision increased with the size of the raid,but it was comforting to know that you were surrounded by friendlies. This was especially so after a prolonged climb through an ice-laden
overcast when you begin to see one after another of your pals emerging above the cloud layer into the immense night sky.
You are right about the venerable old Stirling.
They were sometimes the brunt of black humour such as-"You couldn't see the TI's for the Stirlings down there". However they were gallantly defended by any pilots I have talked to or read about. Their wings were actually shortened considerably so they would fit into the many existing hangars.
This of course reduced there service ceiling and delegated them to the bottom.
As for our casualty rates I'm sure they were purposely kept in a very low profile. We all had our reservations and and views as to our chances
of survival. I just said "What!me die?"
Nuff for now. Cheers all- Alex Campbell

 

This is what I have regarding the route to Homberg. On the way out, the Lancasters must have crossed southern Holland, probably above Flushing and then to Tilburg Venlo and finally Germany. On the way home they went slightly north above Apeldoorn and crossed the Channel approximately above Katwijk. However on the way out, some stray Lancs were spotted somewhat south, above Brugges, belgium and on the way home others crossed further south,including the heavily defended Rotterdam area. At least one Lanc went as far south as the Lille area (100/150 km south from the intended crossing point ). It would be very possible that NJG1 was involved in the inverted flight episode. If I am correct Hunsel is in Southern Holland and the Millar crew would fit in this shedule. I don't know whether it was shot out or homebound . If it was around 1.00 am it would be on the way out.

 

Skipper67 in comparing your findings with a list of co-ordinates Wayne has found it would appear unlikely that I should have been on a southerly
course over Holland. It must have been more easterly than southerly. Can't get away with it.
One of my thoughtful instructors did point out that if I were to align a corner of the starboard no-draft window with Polaris it would give us a heading of 315 degrees. I'm pretty sure I did just that on leaving the target area.
Thanks again to all. Skipper of C Charlie

PS- I had a helpful Scottish neighbor who used to say to me occasionally- "I had a dog. I fed him on thanks. The dog died".
Cheers Alex

 

20/21 July 44

In the area of Holland.

II./NJG 1 at 01:14hrs,01:48hrs,02:16hrs
III./NJG 1 at 01.11, 01:16, 01.20, 01.31, 01.41

as examples

 

Actually I meant a route that would go from the South west coast of Holland towards the German border, roughly following the Rhine. Would that fit into the route? The times mentionned by Erich for losses in Holland show that aircrafts were lost both on the out and homeward route.
I confirm that Hunsel is in southern Holland , in Limburg, almost near the Belgian border. The Millar crew crashed at 01:16 according to Chorley's book. this means it was shot down on the outward route. There are several claims around the 01.16 time scale, either by NJG1 or NJG3 crews and they all fit into the Limburg or Ruhr area. So it's difficult to be sure. I was amazed by the 514 Squadron losses on this Operation . Besides the Millar crew, I see the Lassam, McLean and Anderson crews which makes four Lancs losts by your Squadron in a few minutes. Al the crews: KIA. This must have been devastating for morale.

 

Mr Campbell. I received an email today about Robert Giffin. It mentions his 1944 address. It is 62 years old but it shows that Bob was from ontario.
J23078 Flying Officer Robert Roy Giffin was from Toronto, Ontario. He was only 22 years old when killed in action on the night of the 29th of July 1944. His father C. R. Giffin, lived at 790 Eglington Avenue West in Toronto at the time of Flying Officer Giffin's death. I will keep on looking for his relatives.

 

Skipper67 you're at it again. I live barely 20 miles from that address on eglinton ave west. 790 is between yonge st. and bathurst st. Mapquest shows the address but the "zoom-in" feature won't work on that site. I do recall Bob's dad had a business on Eglinton Ave I believe some two miles further west.
It was called Giffin Machinery. As yet I've been unable to find any reference to that name. I do not drive in Toronto that much any more.
Did someone post a photo of Strassner's Ju88? I'm sure I've seen a camouflage scheme depicting purple blotches on a night fighter version. It could even have been in a model a/c store or mag.
Amazing- cheers Alex Campbell

 

I found a picture of a model at this site,

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal3/2801-2900/Gal2816_Ju-88_Vilingr/gal2816.htm