Cuba

While you critizise my ''lack of evidence'' still no one of you hasn't reacted on what the us sanctions on Cuba are and what they cause.


I thought the topic was about Cuba, and when I bring in arguments about Cuba, such as the us sanctions, you have no answer.

 

Well, I do know that the US started refusing to buy Cuban sugar when Castro went over to the Soviets (sugar cane was their big export crop back then).

Obviously they haven't put an embargo on cigars...
:smok:

 

I don't know!
Can you enligthen me?

 

The us sanctions covers a wide spectrum of goods, services, technology and knowledge.

It is divided in three levels; (sometimes called classes)
Level 1 Goods, services, technology and knowledge: state of the art
Level 2 Goods, services, technology and knowledge: modern status
Level 3 Goods, services, technology and knowledge: outdated

The us wants cuba to receive only level 3. Companies wich sell something that can be labelled as level 1 or 2 get warnings not to sell to cuba. If they sell something to cuba the companies will face severe punishment.
Things like seizing banc accounts, cargo, property or a prohibit to in or export to the us. Ships with cargo for cuba are checked by us coast guard or navy on international waters (strictly forbidden by sea laws).

Example, about a year ago I read in a monthly health magazine an article about selling replaced health care goods. A swiss hospital wanted to sell it's replaced (mobile) e.r. i.c. and care inventory to a Havana hospital. All went well till the goods were on sea to Cuba. The us finds out what was sold to Cuba and declares the goods ''strategical hostile military goods ''.
After us government pressure the deal was cancelled and the goods were send to a us friendly nation.

The inventory was between 15 and 30 years old. Although the inventory was updated or modified it was still outdated.

Now many us citizens say; health care in Cuba is free but you don't get serious health care.

I just gave you the example why this happens. But ofcourse you are free throw some mud about it because it might really have been strategical military goods. When your government claims so you believe it right away or not?

 

It's a newspaper like any other newspaper. Every newspaper has a bias even if they don't say they do.

 

I have found that the least bias newspaper is the New York Times. As much as I love the Trib, it is very much so slanted towards Republican.

 

Are you joking? The New York Times is liberal. I think local papers are the best shot for a more balance view. My newspaper, The Virginian Pilot, does have some bias, but overall it is pretty fair. Certain writers have differing views, so it keeps it interesting and less biased one way.

 

Are you joking? The New York Times is liberal. I think local papers are the best shot for a more balance view. My newspaper, The Virginian Pilot, does have some bias, but overall it is pretty fair. Certain writers have differing views, so it keeps it interesting and less biased one way.[/quote]

I guess that since I am more liberal then republican, the Times appeals to me more.

 

You shouldn't doubt it. The Miami Herald is considered a liberal, Democratic leaning newspaper. I don't know if Knight-Ridder (or some other company which owns Knight-Ridder) contirbutes to the Bush campaign or not. "It is said" is hardly evidence that the paper falsified information. And it's not uncommon for major companies to contribute to BOTH political parties anyway. There are a million potential Woodward and Bernsteins out there, with their editors, who whould love to be able to prove a major political conspiracy. Use some common sense.
The flash you linked to was an inaccurate mis-representation of what were already questionable statistics. Anton, you are going to doubt anything that is remotely pro U.S.

 

I guess that since I am more liberal then republican, the Times appeals to me more.[/quote]

Each to his own, I guess.

 

Three days past after my comment on the us sanctions on cuba that cause the bulk of the problems and still not one of the american forum members has responded properly.

Yes, very well argumented replies. What a load of crap.

 

To add my earlier post of american lead crimes in mid-america.

In 1996 ''The Army School Of The Americas'', now called ''army training school Ft. Benning Ga. released their torture training manual used in the 1980s. It has schooled hundreds of soldiers, officers and nco's who have committed documented human rights abuses in Latin America.
These crimes includes the us officers led special salvadoran assault unit in the murder of six Jesuit priests in 1989 in El Salvador.

The existance of these trainings and manuals was admitted by the school.

 

you don't think other nations have such schools? goodness. sure some of the stuff got carried away, but all nations have interrogation techniques. the more civilized ones use basically the same ones. the less civilized use techniques that i don't wish to discuss here.
sure, just as we have seen in Iraq, sometimes there are isolated incidents of misuse, but most of the time it is ok. i don't think it was "torture training" either.

 

Then perhaps you might consider looking again. The Miami Herald is at least as trustworthy as either the Washington Post or the New York Times. Their reporters investigated the story as thoroughly as anyone else did (given the paper's location, that's as it should be). Yet you dimiss their efforts out of hand because you alledge that the owners of the paper contributed money to Mr. Bush's campaign. Give us hard evidence of their bias, their unreliability, Anton; then we'll believe it.

 

Interesting fact; a few of our american forum members described my view as a direct statement of the Ministry of Truth referring to 1984.

Yet you take statements of your Ministry of Truth, wether it is your government or news agencies, for granted. Playing the game of evidence is a nasty game, you should (as intelligent educate western citizens) know that those who are in power will do the utmost to prevent outcome of evidence. It gets even more interesting because you are played like a instrument by your (so-called elected) leaders, the music played is that of a timeless composer: NATIONALISM. Or in your language Patriotism.
When I read most of your posts you seem to me as educated and well thought people, when it has to do with your country however it seems you quit thinking and fill yourself with an american flag and eagle.

It is therefore hardly surprising that you demand evidence of me and lacking to give it yourself.


It reminds me to those who followed the orders blindly filled with ideology and nationalism and shaped a society wich was able to kill millions using the love for the country as a argument.

 

Actually, nationalism and patriotism are not the same at all!

And please notice that the fact that you are linking behaviour of forum members to national socialism might be insulting.

 

Herin lays the deeper meaning of my post.

What you just said is my "evidence" of how the thinking works of people filled with nationalism. I do not refer to nazi's, the description can be fitted upon fascism and communism as well. By claiming that I compare forum members with nazi's you again, as wel as american forum members, mis the point!!!!

Us patriotism is the same as Nationalism. The word has a bad meaning and so americans call it Patriotism. Please do not be naive.

 

I never said you were comparing forum members to nazis, I said you were linking their behaviour to that one of people under national socialism, which is not the same.
A discussion should always be done with a minimum of respect, otherwise it is not constructive anymore.

There can be no real nationalism in the US, as nationalism is historically linked with a race, but there is no american race, they are a mix of races.So there can be french nationalism, german nationalism, dutch nationalism, not american.
There may be some negative patriotism(= patriotism that makes you accept everything your country does,just because it is your country)in the US.(as elsewhere too)
I don't think that can be called nationalism.
Positive patriotism is when you love your country, see it's deficits and try to improve it.

I am fully aware that there is a problem with US foreign policy in general and especially under Bush, and it is your right to criticise it, but please do it respectfully.(At least on this forum )
Besides that, I think european nations often are not any bether, when it comes to how they deal with third world countries.

 

Yes Castelot, thank you for this post. Watch yourself, all those in this toipic who came dangerously close to insulting each other, with the best of meanings but less so in expressing themselves. Interpretation is the largest part of every written insult.

Just to make things more confusing , in Belgium there is a party that is nationalist, in coming up for the people of Flanders, and socialist in coming up for the weak and the poor. This party is very very right-wing but it is not, as these two things might suggest, national-socialist. It is nationalist and socialist. The borderline has been reached though, as recently this party has been declared racist by a federal court.

 

Indeed Castelot you have made a very good point.

The point I was trying to make is as that although america cannot have the same nationalism like we europeans can it tries hard. The US represents itself as a nation with national identity. It hasn't got it but they have found another form of nationalism; Patriotism. That is why I compared the US patriotism with nationalism. Like in nationalism, patriotism does not allow critic or a view from the other side. Everything is focused on own interest and the leaders are always right. It is the same as what nationalistic germans said of Hitler: Der Fuhrer hat immer recht.
So when someone discuss the negative effects and intentions of us foreign policy with arguments ( see my earlier posts) they cannot respond on theoretical base but only by throwing mud, divert the original subject or question the sources without giving valid and independant
sources themselfs.