T-34

Thanks Sarco - some nice pictures there!

 

Re: Was busy...

Not sure about the actual details or range of shot. You can clearly see that it was a frontal shot though. This was the first definately documented time that an IS-2 met a Tiger I and was knocked out. These were Tigers of Schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 at Tarnopol in early April 1944.

There are reports that the IS-2 was first used in combat during the Cherkassy-Korsun operation in Feb 1944 around the village of Tinovka. These IS-2s were assigned to 2nd Guards Tank Army but were halted by elements from Schwere Panzer Regiment Bake (mixed group of Tiger Is from 503 and Panthers) and Ist Panzer Division. SS Liebstandarte and 34.Inf.Div were aslo around this vicinity. I guess nobody could pinpoint exactly who actually knocked out what during those battles although the IS-2s were most certainly 'taken care' of.

Here is a picture supposedly from these engagements around Tinovka in Feb 1944. The picture does show early production IS-2s. It is from the private collection of Oberleutnant von Dornberg, a Panther tank commander in Ist Panzer Div during these battles.

 

It's interesting to see Sarco mentioning that the KV1 was 'scrapped' because it was useless. In fact, the tank was developed into the KV2, KV1-A through E, KV1-s, KV-85, KV8 and 9 flamethrower tanks, and the enormous KV-220. Also, later on during the war its design was simplified and its silhouette lowered to become the base of a new generation of tanks called the IS series. Basically the IS1 was an upgraded KV-85. If you can find a way to prove the uselessness of this design now, I shall be deeply impressed...

 

I reall wonder how the Is-3 would have held up against the Tiger.

 

Against the Tiger I, it would have been superior. Against the Tiger II, it would have been roughly comparable, with an advantage for the Tiger II especially in the case of frontal engagements.

Christian

 

IS-3 had the same gun as the IS-2 so it would still have been inferior with it's main armament compared to the King Tiger. As we have seen, the IS-2 wasn't really superior to the Tiger I although the IS-3 had better designed frontal armour than the IS-2.

 

I have read that, technically, both the Tiger I and the JS-2 could knock each other from great distances (the Tiger had better chances, but not much better), so the JS-3, with its dome armour would have resisted easily the Tiger's shots, but the Tiger would have a tough time facing the A19. So, at least for me, the JS-3 would be far superior. We must remember that many of the destroyed JS-1 and 2 facing Tigers failed because of engine or transmission problems, not because of weak armour or little firepower.

 

This should be considderet.....

122mm Dt-25 gun using APCBC= penetrates 92mm of 30* sloped armor at 2000m..

88mm L/56 gun using APCBC = penetrates 87mm of 30* sloped armor at 2000m.. When using APCR this is 110mm of 30* sloped armor at 2000m...

The guns on both tanks are about equal in penetration but the TigerI's superior optics made it a far more Dangerous tank for the russians than the IS-2 was for the Germans......(One must also not forget that some Tigers were equipped with rangefinder equiment, this made the tigers Gun especially dangerous at long ranges, because this eliminated range calculation problems.......

And when the "K-Tiger" came into service, no tank in the world could withstand a frontal blow at 2500m from its 88m L/71 gun......("wich Btw was the most Powerfull gun mounted on a "True" tank during ww2")

Best regards, KBO

 

KBO,

Somebody after my own heart! I've said basically the same thing about Tiger Is v IS-2s in other threads!

 

It seems that the Tiger's 88mm L/56 gun was capable of a lot more than I always thought it was. Turns out the newest generation of Soviet heavies still weren't heavy enough!

 

Quite true......

But the IS-2 was still very heavely armored so it was still a very very dangerous opponent for the TigerI..... :bang:


Regards, KBO

 

KBO - Do not forget that the Tiger I's lack of any armor slope made it quite inferior to the JS2. The JS 2's effective armor thickness more than made up for the difference in penetration ability of the 88mm gun.

Bovington Museum, 1975
Range 500 1000 1500 2000 2500

88mm L56 APCBC 110 101 93 84 76
APCR 126 103 85 70 50

88mm L71 APCBC 182 167 153 139 127

Sov 122 L43APCBC 140 130 120 110 100



The JS2 had 4.3" of frontal hull armor sloped at say 60 degrees? 55 degrees? This gives it an effective thickness of over 15 inches. The Tiger guns could not penetrate the frontal hull armor with any 88 gun, with any ammo, at any range on a horizontal shot (unless there was a flaw in the tank armor construction).

The turret is another story. But then we go back to hit probability.

:smok:

 

I still cannot get a chart to reproduce correctly on this web site.

 

KBO - Knew you would want the full source info:

"Fire and Movement", RAC Tank Museum, Bovington, 1975, pages 22–25. "Penetration v. homogenous armour at 30º, at ranges in yards". The armour is machineable quality.

Note: Penetration given is in Yards, not meters.

:smok:

 

Greg
If you want to reproduce a chart on the forum, you'll have to either replace each space with the code   or place the table within the '

Code:

'-tag.

 

What ever happened to "cut & paste"?

:cry:

 

It died with HTML, since whitespace isn't considered an actual space, but a spacer.

 

I guess cut & paste is too easy.

 

First off the 88mm L/56 gun could penetrate 110mm of 30* sloped armor at 2000m using APCR.... your source dont show that...... those numbers you just pull up are totally incorrect.....

Secondly its abit strange that if no 88mm gun could penetrate the frontal armor of the IS-2, then why did 1 King tiger at a range of 2500m totally destroy 11 IS-2's in a matter of minutes.........4 of the IS-2's were hit on thier frontal armor, but the 88mm just cut through like a hot knife through butter...

KBO

 

And Greg just say "when", and then ill provide you with all the sources you need..... Mainly my sources are from a known researcher "Tom jentz" and "Horst Scheibert" both known Tank writers.......


And i can tell you that the 88mm L/56 can penetrate like this:

Pzgr39/APCBC against 30* sloped armor: 2000m=87mm

Pzgr40/APCR against 30* sloped armor: 2000m=110mm

Oh yes this is 100% sure.......

KBO