Do You Believe?

Something came up on a post that normally, a lot of people say "TABOO"!!

Of course this is religion. Personally, I don't care what religion a person is and whether you believe in God, a supreme being, or not at all.

Myself, I am Christian. Now beforew we go off on the deep end, I believe that the religious text of man's creation and Darwin's theory of evolution go hand in hand. If you have ever seen "Inherit the Wind" with Spencer Tracy you know where I am coming from.

So, if we have any others out there that wish to mix it up on this topic, let's go.

:smok:

 

Personally I tend to regard (any) religion with faint suspicion, read through my recent comments on Northern Ireland and you'll probably figure out why.

Some of the greatest acts of humanity and worst acts of horror have been done in the name of one god or another. I think like everything else humanity lays its hands on religion is prone to being perverted.

 

Agreed - misuse of Religion has caused more trouble than most things.

When actually lived properly, the Christian life is amazing.
When used as an excuse to 'go and bash the heathens', not so.

 

It is my opinion that gods and religions were made by man, nor the other way around. There is not other way to explain why there are hundreds of religions out there with millions of gods, and none of them with the faintest bit of conclusive proof of existence of those gods. They exist because people believe in them, and have invented religion to worship them, because gods make your life easier.

They provide trust in an afterlife, or trust that he/she watches over you, or trust that you can bribe them with sacrifice to be on your side in life. They and the legends of their heritage and actions provide answers to questions otherwise left unanswered. Nowadays, even with science explaining a lot, there are still such questions and therefore most people still need religion and the extras mentioned above that their religion provides.

Finally, throughout history religion was a nice way of organizing society; who was important and who was not, who was favoured by the god(s) and who was not, which god you had to worship in which profession etcetera.

But I don't believe in any god or gods, because I don't feel I need it and I am too sceptical to go with any religion I know.

 

Roel, I brought this over because I wanted to respond and thought it was best here:

Roel Said:

"I didn't say he was an American either. You just said that if there would be an evil man convincing the American public that he would bring their dying economy back on tracks, it would be the antichrist. So I thought you were suggesting that to bring down the US, the antichrist himself would come up from hell. That, I thought, is rather arrogant.

And now I'm disgusted at your sunday school too. Basically what they tell you is keep the war in the Middle East going! Because if it ever stops, the antichrist will have done it. That's a nice way of turning young children against the Islam! Criminal!

Oh, and on your point that I "will believe it", just about 5/6th of the world's population doesn't believe that Christ is the son of any God and that his nemesis is the Antichrist, me included. So whatever you might believe as the truth, I believe something else and I'm the majority here. Doesn't this ever cause you to doubt your truth, and consider other versions? I will not believe this before my death, and I highly doubt believing it after. Simply because it's impossible for one religion to be the truth, and you can believe what you want, and maybe it'll come true for you, but I'm no part of it."


First of all Roel, I think that's a shame! I'' miss you when I leave this place for the next!

All I can say in reply is that what you say reminds me of the Jew that commented to the Christ at the sermon on the mount, questioning whether or not Jesus was the son of God. The reply was simply something like: "If you do not believe in me, believe in the work I do".

So I ask you, do you find fault in any way with the philosophy of the Christ? Admittedly, the Bible is a book just like the Koran and the Book of Mormon. Anyone can write a book.

But that book is the testimony by which millions at least attempt to live their lives. Whether you believe in God or not, do you find fault with the philosophy? If so, I would be real interested to know why.

:smok:

 

No, I don't find any fault in the philosophy. I just don't believe that any of the stories, assumptions and legends this philosophy is based on are (entirely) true. I think it is very good when people try to live their lives free of the sins recorded as such in the bible. However I don't think people need a bible to define what is wrong and right for them; you have your own judgment, use it. I am just surprised that so many people are willing to be God's herd of lambs. They just follow.

The ideas of Christ and Bible are good of course, because they are mostly the same the set of values most Western countries live by today. But like Ebar I just mistrust a religion with such a profound lambs and shepherd look to it. I am not a follower.

 

Well, congratulations Greg! A post worthy indeed! I have been discussing a lot about these topics, and I wnat to say only one thing about religion: I believe; I am Catholic, and I go to church every Sunday. Now, I'm not a mindless zealot, I believe in a "rational faith", despite the concept is confusing. I don't accept everything the Pope says, I tend to question everything and to believe in what I think is true. I don't like puritans who think everything a priest says is true because he's God's envy: he's a man, just a I am, and he can make mistake.
Religion is worthy only when it makes us better people, when following its moral ideals we help the people who need it, and try to build a better world (this sounds too altrustic, I know, but is a long term objective). And it is a big problem when it become the banner of modern crusaders: a friend of mine created a new commandmente: "Defend God". And he plans to defend Him killing Jew and Muslims! So religion is, for me, a big paradox: the sum of all good, and the root of the worst evil. It all depends on how you take it, on how you are, and that implies how you live your daily life.

 

Ricky, I like what you said.

At the risk of confusing everything I am going to say that I am a Christian & that I perceive Christianity as; having a relationship with God the Father, through God the Son, by God the Holy Spirit. (you may need to re-read that last sentance for it to make sense)
I personally regard Christianity as a relationship not a religion.
My understanding is that Christ came (amongst other things) to do away with religion (the Old Covenant) & replace it with a new and better one. Relationship (The new Covenant)

I appreciate that this whole "can o' worms" is a sensative & delicate one.
I apologise in advance to anyone who has been offended by me posting these personal views, but that is all they are, personal views, I am not trying to "convert" anyone here or forcing my beliefs upon them.

Long live good natured debate.

God bless you all.

(Or if you prefer, in the words of Dave Allen "may your god go with you")

 

Couldn't agree more with this. It's how you percieve people that determines how you percieve religion. If you believe that man is bad by nature, you'll see religion as the root of all evil because it will bring out the bad side and encourage that side by giving it reason. If you believe, however, that man is good by nature, you'll see religion as a source of good things. In the first case you'll say, away with religion, it will cause crusade-like massacres and Inquisition-like injustice. In the second case you'll say, believe, for God or the Gods bring you great virtues and Heaven when you die.

 

No, there is nothing to believe in as far as I'm concerned. I haven't seen, heard or felt anything that would make me believe there is an 'almighty'.

It's a big NO from me.

Personally I think there is more likelyhood of Aliens, Bigfoot and lake monsters existing than any God.

 

Well, Lyndon, you are entitled to your beliefs (or lack thereof).

As for myself, I am a Christian, saved by the grace of Almighty God through the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ.

I put this question to those of you who do not believe: Just what, precisely, does your disbelief gain for you? In my opinion, it gains you little or nothing. You are forced to the conclusion that this life we are living right now is all we've got to look forward to, an idea I find frankly appalling. Christians look forward to eternal life in Heaven, the Millenial Kingdom, and the new Heaven and Earth, and to fellowship with God. Now let's say, hypothetically, that I'm wrong, and there is no basis whatsoever for my beliefs, that it's all a fantasy. So what? I lose nothing. If I am wrong about my faith, then I will have lived an exemplary life and will die without knowing that I was wrong. But if I'm right...

And I can also say this to you, Lyndon: You say that you have seen, heard and felt nothing to indicate that God exists. I see, hear, and feel His presence everywhere. You just have to be willing to look.

 

You're right of course, a good Christian should look forward to dying instead of fearing it. On the other side there is this atheist's ideal of Carpe Diem (sieze the day) which I really hate. I can't live either believing in something so vague and unproven as heaven or like every day is a single, independent event, because of course it is not. Yet, I am not unhappy, and I do not fear death. So as you can see I don't really need religion, as I pointed out before.

The following quote is from an interesting novel I'm reading. I don't post it to make a point, just to share a view with you all that sounded quite extraordinary to me.

 

There's something I say sometimes: let's say God doesn't exist. I firmly believe he does, as I said some posts before, but let's suppose he doesn't. And, we reach the end of our lives living like good Christians for nothing. Now, isn't it worthy to live like that, helping the people around you, doing good and all the things religion REALLY asks from us? Sometimes I consider I believe more in good will than in anything else. God is, most of all, the supreme Good, so being good-willed we are honour him the best way we can, and if he isn't real, we are living a good life. Good luck!

 

Well, if there is not a God, then I'm the luckiest guy alive!

There are too many times I should have been dead. I truly believe someone has watched over me.

:smok:

 

Well, I feel THIS life and THIS present is most important. I don't see the point in wondering what will or will not happen after I die. I'll be dead and so I won't know anything. Even if you are right about heaven then look at it this way........I've done nothing wrong in my life, I've helped others and I've been a good citizen. I fail to see that just because I didn't believe in God that it will make me lose out on any 'benefits' if there really is an afterlife. That just sounds like being picky to me and in that case well then I'm glad I don't believe in any of it. What is more important to gain entry into heaven, believing in God or being a good person?? That's something to think about.

What about the pygmies in Central Africa of the reindeer hurders in the middle of Siberia? They have no knowledge of your God. God or Jesus never came to these people so they don't believe and why should they if they have no awareness? Does that mean they will lose out too? More to the point why DIDN'T God come to these people? If he is so almighty then the word of God should be inbuilt within every single one of us in all corners of the globe. Missionaries would have been irrelevant. The word of God would have been instinct. But the fact remains that it isn't.

And who goes to heaven and who does not? Animals aren't religious? Do they not go to heaven? I wouldn't like to live in an afterlife with no animals and no beauty of nature around me.

Well, it's just my opinion. You have your beliefs and you are fully entitled to have them. I still feel no evidence around me that there is a God running the show. In fact, quite the contrary. If there ever was such a God well then he's long since shifted his attentions to another world and forgotten completely about us. You only have to look at the suffering and pain and just plain inbalance of life that exists in the world. No God of any merit would let that continue. I've never found an answer to why that is allowed to happen. This is why I believe there is nothing.

 

Yeah!

Really nice work there Lyndon, I agree with the whole lot of it (except maybe the distinction between man and animal, which I consider so vague as to be almost irrelevant). Another thing is that there is no explanation for the fact that all religions are 'the truth' to its followers yet none of them will acknowledge the others. This simply means that no single one of them can possibly be the truth, and that either means that millions of God exist or that none exist. So no matter what you believe, you'll just have to wait and see where you go when you die. If you go anywhere, that is...

 

Lyndon, those who do not accept Jesus as their Savior are doomed to spend eternity in Hell. The only exceptions to this rule are children up to a certain age. I take no pleasure in saying such things to you or anyone else; I do so because I like you and the people here in this forum and I'd prefer to help spare them the fate I just mentioned. And if just one person accepts Christ as his or her Savior, or even starts down that path, because of anything I have said, then I have done well. But the choice is, of course, yours.

 

That's what you believe! I don't have to believe this and it doesn't have to be true. It's just something you believe. You can't fool me into thinking I'll go to hell (if there is any such place) just because I won't accept that Jesus Christ died for my sins (whatever...), and when I don't believe this then nothing will happen at all, ever, because there's really no reason why it should be true.

Do you honestly think that all humans who died before the spreading of christian faith now reside in Hell? Because they simply could not have accepted JC and by your definition they go to hell. Do you really think thay Heaven (if there is any such place, too) is some sort of exclusive Club for Those who Accepted The Lord as Their Savior and Not for Any Pageans who Haven't and now Live in Hell in Eternal Pain, Ha Ha Ha, Don't say we Didn't Warn You?

 

Footprints in the Sand
One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord.
Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky. In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand. Sometimes there were two sets of footprints, other times there was one only. This bothered me because I noticed that during the low periods of my life, when I was suffering from anguish, sorrow or defeat, I could see only one set of footprints, so I said to the Lord,
“You promised me Lord, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I have noticed that during the most trying periods of my life
there has only been one set of footprints in the sand. Why, when I needed you most, have you not been there for me?”
The Lord replied, “The years when you have seen only one set of footprints, my child, is when I carried you.”

 

Yes, Roel, I do believe that. Of course, there is no sign such as you describe in Heaven. There is no need for one, because those condemned to Hell already know everything you wrote on your postulated sign. And they'll know it for all eternity.