Beslan and the wars of Caucasus.

I really don't know where this will go. I have been following the Beslan situation very closely and reading about the conflict in general. It's went on for a long time. Russia expanded into the area hundreds of years ago and has been squabbling every since.

For starters the following is how not to handle a hostage situation. The wars in the area are another matter all together.

Read the last paragraph if nothing else. There are heroes out there.

Terrorists that take kids as shields :angry: :angry: IMO are a waste of air.

Basketball Bomb Sparked Beslan Battle

By Nabi Abdullaev and Simon Ostrovsky
Staff Writers

Sergei Karpukhin / Reuters

A child reaching out to touch the glass of a window displaying the pictures of still-missing hostages in Beslan, North Ossetia. About 200 people remain unaccounted for.


BESLAN, North Ossetia -- A bomb falling off a basketball hoop sparked the fierce battle at the Beslan school, and armed civilians hoping to save their loved ones helped sow chaos that cost the lives of hundreds of hostages.

Hostages concurred Monday that fighting only began after a heavy bomb fell off the hoop in the gymnasium and detonated. The attackers had herded many of the 1,100 hostages into the gym in the first minutes of the crisis and taped bombs to a line between two basketball hoops and the hoops themselves.

One hostage said the falling bomb hit the head of a teenage girl lying under a basketball hoop before it exploded.

At that very moment, four Emergency Situations Ministry officers were approaching the school under an arrangement with the attackers to pick up bodies that had been lying in the schoolyard since the crisis started.

Authorities said attackers standing guard at the windows opened fire, believing that the blast in the gymnasium and the approaching rescuers signaled the beginning of an operation to storm the school. Two rescuers were killed on the spot.

As shell-shocked hostages started pouring out of the gym's shattered windows, the attackers started firing frantically at them.


Pandemonium then broke out. Special forces, local police and armed civilians responded by opening fire over the heads of the fleeing hostages.

The battle could have been prevented if civilians had obeyed orders to hold their fire, said former Ingush President Ruslan Aushev, who was in Beslan to negotiate the release of hostages.

The attackers told him by phone that they would stop shooting if those on the outside also stopped, Aushev said in an interview published in Novaya Gazeta on Monday.

Servicemen forming a cordon around the school were ordered to stop firing, but the civilians continued shooting, he said.

Unsure of what would happen next, the attackers detonated their explosives in the school.

The grim result was at least 335 people dead -- including 156 children -- and more than 540 wounded, state-controlled Rossia television reported Monday, providing the latest update on Friday's toll. It said 192 people were buried Monday.

A total of 332 people remained hospitalized, including 202 children, the North Ossetian Health Ministry said.

About 200 people were missing, RIA-Novosti reported.

While accounts from hostages, soldiers and government officials support the version that the falling basketball bomb set off the battle, some North Ossetian law enforcement officials suggested that the explosion was deliberate and part of an escape plan by several of the attackers.

Citing local OMON officers, Kommersant reported Monday that the attackers planned to lure the rescuers into the school, kill them, put on their uniforms and attempt to flee by car.

This version is indirectly supported by reports in Izvestia on Monday that gunfire preceded the blast inside the school. Hostages have said that the attackers frequently fired their guns to intimidate them.

Deputy Prosecutor Sergei Fridinsky reiterated Monday that 32 attackers had seized the school and 30 of them had been killed. He said one attacker was in custody.

Izvestia said two attackers were lynched by the civilians -- one as he attempted to escape and the other after being pulled out of a police car by the angry crowd.

The first attacker was killed by a local police officer during the seizure of the school Wednesday, Izvestia said.

Kommersant said Monday that from one to three hostage-takers might have escaped.

Fridinsky said that there were Chechens, Ingush, Tatars, Kazakhs and Koreans among the attackers. Earlier, the head of the North Ossetian branch of the Federal Security Service, Valery Andreyev, claimed that 10 of the attackers were Arabs, one of them black.

Aushev said the attackers during negotiations had refused to speak Vainakh, the language spoken both by the Ingush and Chechens, and used only Russian.



Dmitry Norov / Reuters


Aslanbek Aslakhanov, President Vladimir Putin's adviser on Chechnya who participated in negotiations, said they spoke in Russian with a Caucasus accent that was neither Ingush nor Chechen, Noviye Izvestia reported Monday.

Hostages said the attackers spoke Russian among themselves.

Authorities so far have established the identity of only one attacker, Ossetian criminal-turned-rebel Anatoly Khodov, 28. He was a suspect in two terrorist attacks in North Ossetia earlier this year, and his fingerprints were in the databases of the local police, Kommersant said.

Gazeta identified the detained attacker as Nur-Pashi Kulayev, 24, a native of the Chechen village of Stary Engenoi.

Three other attackers, including Kulayev's elder brother Khan-Pashi, also came from this village.

The Kulayevs are believed to be bodyguards and confidants of Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev, who has claimed responsibility for a number of terrorist attacks, including the hostage-taking raid on Moscow's Dubrovka theater in October 2002.

Nur-Pashi Kulayev is actively cooperating with investigators in identifying other attackers, Channel One television reported.

Rossia on Monday showed him saying that Basayev and Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov had ordered the raid.

A Kommersant reporter said he recognized Magomed Yevloyev, leader of the Ingush Wahhabi, among the bodies of the attackers lying in the schoolyard after Friday's battle.

Yevloyev is thought to have led raids in Ingushetia on June 21-22 that killed almost 90 people.

Kulayev said a Basayev bodyguard was among the attackers, a Slav known only as Fantomas, Kommersant reported.

He did not confirm the participation of Chechen warlord Doku Umarov, who was linked to the raid in earlier reports.

The attackers arrived at the school in a hijacked police truck. They took a police officer, Sultan Gurazhev, hostage on their way to Beslan and he later managed to escape, earlier news reports said. Kommersant said Monday that Gurazhev had been questioned by Beslan police and released.

Rebel web site Kavkazcenter.com reported Sunday that the federal security forces were arresting relatives of Maskhadov. No Russian news media carried this information.

Meanwhile, Itar-Tass reported that in addition to a huge number of hostage deaths, the school crisis claimed a record number of officers in the elite Alfa and Vympel special forces. Ten officers died and 26 were wounded in Friday's battle, most of them as they tried to cover fleeing hostages with their bodies, the head of the veterans organization for special services, Eduard Bendersky, was quoted as saying.

 

The problem is, the Russian government doesn't mind 'spending' some civilian lives in order to jusitfy a larger scheme of decisions. I am pretty sure that the Russians were ordered to storm the building, instead of getting in a firefight that got out of hand. This makes it very hard to point out good or evil in an already complicated situation.

 

The Russian lost control over the situation when the fighting started....

The minute you go after unarmed civilans you are no longer a freedom fighter nor soldier, but a terrorist and a enemy of mankind..............

 

Indeed. In America, anyone who mishandled a situation like that would likely face criminal charges, and would certainly be sued.

 

Roel. I think your off base on that one, they were not ordered to storm the building. A bomb went off inside and the kids started to bail. The terrorists started shooting the kids and the civvies went nuts. The kids were caught in the crossfire. The situation was not handled that well but then the Russians have never been known to be patient in situations like that.

Search and read up on it. I followed it up to the minute.

 

I don't trust any statement given by the Russian government about what happened there. It might be true up to the point where the "civvies went nuts"; it's my opinion that at the moment the terrorists started shooting the kids, the Russian troops were ordered to "stop the shooting" in the widest context. Now you now the events better than I do but I refuse to believe, in the light of Russian history in dealing with terrorists and any internal problems, that the soldiers just "went nuts". They were very well aware of what they were doing when they assaulted the place.

Corp, it's not that anyone in Russia doing this wouldn't be sued; it's that in America, an order like the one I am convinced was issued would never have been considered. America isn't willing to spend even a single civilian life to save others, or to end a tenacious situation, and that is the difference with how Russia handled this.

 

Here is a timeline.

Timeline: Beslan school seizure
04/09/2004 07:55 - (SA)

Timeline of Russian school seizure in southern Russia. All times are local, some are approximate.

Wednesday, 1 September 1


09:00 - School seized by gunmen, shots exchanged with police. Death toll reports range from two to eight. More than a dozen wounded. Some attackers reported wearing suicide-bomb belts.

12:00 - More gunfire, explosions reported.
16:40 - At least 12 children and one adult escape after hiding in boiler room, authorities say.
19:30 - Authorities establish contact with hostage takers.
Thursday, 2 September


10:15 - The Kremlin announces that President Vladimir Putin cancelled a trip to Turkey. Would have been first state visit by Russian leader for bilateral talks since Soviet collapse.
14:00 - Putin makes his first public comments on the standoff, calling the school seizure "horrible" and promising that all efforts by authorities will be devoted to the "main task... to save the lives and health of those who became hostages."
Afternoon - Ruslan Aushev, Afghan war hero and former president of neighboring Ingushetia region, holds talks with hostage-takers in school gym. Aushev later credited with securing hostage releases.
16:45 - First hostages released, women and small children taken to safety. A total of 26 released, though one woman returns to school to remain with still-captive children.
20:00 - Officials say the number of hostages, previously thought to be around 350, could be more than 1 000.
21:00 - Local legislator says 20 male hostages were executed inside school. Negotiations with the hostage-takers continues, after overnight suspension, with efforts to persuade militants to allow a delivery of water, food and medicine for the captives.

Friday, 3 September


01:00 - Two loud bangs heard, authorities call it unprovoked firing by hostage-takers. One policeman reported wounded.
13:00 - Emergency workers approach school with agreement of militants to retrieve bodies of dead hostages that have been lying in front of the building for two days.
13:20 - Explosions heard, possibly set off accidentally by militants. Hostages take it as signal to flee, militants open fire on fleeing hostages, security forces return fire, lead 30 women and children to safety.
13:45 - Militants begin fleeing building. Security forces pursue them in the town and storm the school building.
14:00 - More hostages freed. Ambulances and private cars take hundreds of wounded to hospitals. Scattered shooting heard as security forces search streets and nearby buildings for fleeing militants, some of them apparently women who have disguised themselves in hostages' clothing.
14:30 - As Russian commandos take control of most of the school, they blow a hole in a wall of the school to aid hostage escape.
15:17 - Most of the hostages are reportedly evacuated. At least 100 bodies are seen in the school gymnasium, some apparently killed when part of the roof collapsed in initial explosions.
15:25 - Thirteen escaped militants are reportedly holed up in a local home, surrounded by tanks. Intermittent gunfire continues at school.
19:15 - At least three militants still hold some hostages, including children, inside the school where troops fight fiercely for their release, security officials say.
19:50 - A strong explosion sounds inschool building. Soon after, officials say the fighting was over, but that two militants remained at large. It was not clear whether they still held hostages.
22:15 - Crisis center reports that militants' resistance on the school grounds has ended, though four hostage-takers remain at large.
The death toll could be well above 250, according to the top federal security chief in North Ossetia. At least 27 militants have been killed in the fighting, including 10 Arabs, officials say. The ITAR-Tass news agency reported 646 people were wounded, including 332 children.

 

Roel. I have followed this closely from day one. I have been in close contact with several friends in Russia (Belgorod and Moscow) and the news is pretty much being reported truthfully over there and here.

The Russian media is having a hard time in all of the confusion and rumours are flying but a free and open media is definitly functioning to the point where a lot of people want it to be censored. There have been reports of space aliens doing experiments on the kids while the terrorists laugh and another one that says one of the women was a Babba Yagga.

Are you a Russophobe? I don't mean it in a bad way but having been to Russia many times and talked to Americans about it I run into a lot of stereotypes that are just not true.

Ihave a lot of stuff on this saved if people want me to post it.

 

No, I don't fear the Russians. I know that Asian cultures differ much from European cultures, and that one of the main differences is the way individuals are treated and valued. In Russia as well as China or any other Asian country, it isn't a big deal to lose a few in order to gain some higher goal. It really doesn't surprise me that the worst of massacres of the previous century went on in Russia and China; these cultures just don't mind wasting some. This is of course generated by the fact that there are so many people on this continent that nothing will change by a few hundred, or a few thousand deaths.

This cultural difference is what makes me believe that solving a hostage situation is more important to the Russian government than saving the hostages, and that is why I think the Russian soldiers stormed the building on purpose.

 

Beslan is very important aspect of the Russian policy in Caucasus.I've read in a Turkish discussing forum,some of personal accounts of a guerialla(not terrorists I can't claim all of them are terrorists) who fought at Caucasus against the Russians.He mentions he lost some parts of his body and went to Turkey from Caucasus because he has relavites in Turkey.I found him looks very strong to his belief and still working for freedom.

 

Tolga, anyone who associates with someone or a group of someones that takes children hostage like they did in Beslan is lower than whale do-do on the bottom of the ocean.

What do you think they are trying to accomplish Roel? And when it comes to western propaganda about the losses/slaughters ect and mass murders that I have read about in the western world and the coldwar era I have found it to be greatly exaggerated.

I am not saying that it did not happen, all I am saying is that it seems very far fetched and untrue to your average Russian. A lot of Stalins "massacres" were actually ethnic fighting. With the Army used as a peacekeeper/enforcer. Wanton brutality was never condoned in the USSR but is something that just seems to come with the territory like it or not.

 

The more casualties, the more justification. I'm not saying they'll start shooting hostages themselves, but they know that when they start assaulting the place a lot of people will die. And in the case of trying to get a free hand in keeping the Chezyen terrorists down, it would be more justified if more people died by the hands of those criminals.

 

As I pointed out in my previous post,it has became an important turning point.Since the siege of Beslan,Europe has more positive point of view to that "rebel" groups fighting against Russia.In a website,it was claimed that Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev is responsible for siege.Nobody can go further in supporting these groups in worldwide.

 

Your friend in Turkey may be ducking soon. Putin and the FSB think Turkey is harboring these terrorists, they may be hiding there but I do not think the Turkish gov is going to allow it without some action.

Russia is going to hit hard I think and don't get in their way. They will get medievil on you.

Roel I can't buy that. Your reaching. I read everything there was in English print and a lot in Russian. The authorities lost controlof the local population and it got nasty. Yeah Putin is using it just like Bush did but who looks a gift horse in the mouth.

 

No doubt that not officially support to rebel groups from Turkey,however,some groups have relatives in Turkey.Turkey should be more effective on preventing their connections.If my memory doesn't fail me,Putin said Turkey is not a problem at war on terror.

Best Regards
Tolga

 

Tolga. Turkey cannot watch all of its border all of the time and the terrorists will use whatever means the need to hide. Turkey is no exception.

 

Yeah it is possible but reminding you no official harboring.Underground way is possible use for fugitives in everywhere in which places forested and heavy nature prevents control.

Best Regards
Tolga